Vorlon vs Shadows

[lorien1]

Hi There.At the beginning i thought the Vorlons were cool.At the end up,i thought they were just as bad as the Shadows!! Interfering at a genetic level
to produce Telepaths they could use as weapons against the Shadows.Programming races to see them god like,and they were quite prepaired to destroy whole worlds that were influenced by the Shadows.Kosh
seemed to be the only Vorlon with some sort of morality!! If the rest of the
Vorlons were like "Evil Kosh" thay were a bad lot.They thought they were Gods at one time (Thirdspace) and had made many more mistakes.Did you
notice,Kosh (Good) was the only Vorlon with that type of encouter suite?And
no one seemed to notice when he was replaced? They had hidden agendas,and looked upon the younger races like children, that had to be punished if they did not follow there rules.Even "good" Kosh stuck out against Sheridan when he was displeased with him.Colin.<*>.

[TerraFrost]

well... i didn't think of the vorlons as bad, at the end - just as misguided. although, at the end, i stopped thinking of the shadows as bad, as well, and just thought of them as misguided, as well, heh

i also suspect that the vorlon empire didn't want to get too involved in any of these wars. they wanted to fight on their terms, and not on anyone elses. and so when kosh fought on the terms of the lesser races, i think he sorta went up against his own government. and after that, the vorlon government probably decided it was that much more imperitive to fight on their own terms, so they replaced him with that other kosh. there may be more like the first kosh, but i suspect they're a minority, and that they're kept out of contact with the younger races.

[lorien1]

Hi.I think the Vorlons & Shadows were more than misguided.Being races of
superior knowledge, they simply used the younger races, to try and prove their particular theory was correct.Colin.<*>.

[TerraFrost]

well, they were actually supposed to act on their theories. they were supposed to help "raise" the younger races, and you can't really do that without using them, to some degree, heh. although what we saw of them in the B5 universe, i think they were more using them for their own gain, rather then for the younger races gain.

so towards the end of the third age of mankind (or maybe even durring the whole thing), you're definitly right

[Guest]

hello~

[kstahmer]

Don't know if this was JMS' intent, but I interpreted the Vorlons as representing, Eros, and the Shadows ,Thanatos.

I believe that was what the Into The Fire episode was about:

An allegorical representation of the psychological choice we make between Eros (The Vorlons) and Thanatos (The Shadows), and how we must choose/compromise between them, rather than, having them making decisions for us.

[TerraFrost]

that seems like a very real possibility! it's strengthened by the fact that JMS has a degree in psychology, so if anyone would know, he probably would:

http://lists.cs.columbia.edu/pipermail/ ... 04933.html

[lorien1]

In deed,sounds as if this could have been the influence behind the storyline.Colin.<*>.

[Lord Reefer]

I read a JMS post somewhere and he agreed that 'good' Kosh definately went 'native'

Bear in mind that he had far more contact with the younger races than we see in the series. He had been with the Minbari in secret since Dukhat's time and probably longer.

I originally thought of the Vorlons (and later the Shadows) as shephards or parents. Each fighting for their own agendas (order or chaos). However, it's not until we meet Lorien that I started to see them as misguided children. Kind of like 'Lord of the Flies' when the kids make their own rules without supervision.

[TerraFrost]

Bear in mind that he had far more contact with the younger races than we see in the series. He had been with the Minbari in secret since Dukhat's time and probably longer.

the "bad" kosh had also been with the Minbari during Dukhat's time, although he seems to have left, shortly there after. perhapes its the continued contact that made the "good" kosh good?

[Lord Reefer]

You're right, I'd forgotten about that. We see him again on Minbar when Sinclair leaves to become Valen. Maybe he stayed on Minbar while good Kosh came to B5. Which means it must be contact with the humans that creates compasion in good cosh.

[lorien1]

I think also Kosh Naraneck was one of the first Vorlons,mabye they mellowed with age! Colin.<*>.

[Winkchen]

I think, at the beginning, the shadows and vorlons both were good and really wanted to help younger races. I think, they wanted to do so later, too, but they did it the wrong way. They didn`t think of the younger races and whether it really would help them..
But in one point the shadows were right, the war made the younger races much stronger. I think without the war there wouldn`t be the alliance or something like that.

When the shadows and the vorlon had to leave, it was a bit funny, they were a bit like children, who are afraid to go somewhere alone, this scene was a bit stupid, I think...

[lomov]

During the 1st war against the Shadows, did the Vorlons really fight or they just supported the Membari with new technologies?
If they did fight then why other of the First Ones did not interfere?

[TerraFrost]

During the 1st war against the Shadows, did the Vorlons really fight or they just supported the Membari with new technologies?
If they did fight then why other of the First Ones did not interfere?

Yeah... that's something I kinda wonder, myself. Maybe the other first ones interfered because they felt the shadows were the ones who weren't playing by the rules and that the Vorlons, alone, weren't powerful enough to get them to obey the rules? If the shadows were playing by the rules, their interference would be highly inappropriate and if the Vorlons were powerful enough, their interference would have just been a waste.

If that's true, though, then that suggests that the Shadows, 1,000 years ago, were a ton stronger than they are, today, since, in Sheridan's own assessment, the Vorlons were strong enough to destroy Z'ha'dum and to destroy the Shadows - that they just chose not to do so because they wanted the Shadows to repent, or something.