Woman Kills Man with her Shoe

From the world's stupidest criminals to the hottest court cases, you will find something interesting to ponder here.

Postby Nyufrost » Wed Jun 25, 2003 11:54 am

The law is not always equal or just, unfortunately.

Accidentally shooting someone is considered negligent homicide, which translates into involuntary manslaughter in most cases. Using a gun is not considered "reasonable" by legal definition.

Moving back to the case at hand ... in the article you posted, we see speculative remarks made by the dead man's daughter, which may or may not be true. "She said he said" is hearsay and not deemed reliable because it cannot be substantiated, especially when the person who supposedly said it is dead and cannot confirm it. Plus, I would say there could be some spin on the daughter's comments since she is obviously hurt and angry.

The woman's weight is not a factor .. she only outweighed him by 40 pounds and any normal healthy male should be able to throw off someone of lesser strength. Fat weighs less than muscle and she would not *feel* as heavy as a man of the same weight. He was 190 which is not a little skinny weak guy.

I think even at your size that you could throw me off if I tackled you so I think an important question would be WHY Bonds was not able to throw Reinhart off .... I mean, did the first blow knock him unconscious? Did he crack his head on the sidewalk? If she continued to beat on him after he was unconscious then I would also wonder if she was in shock after being punched in the face so hard it knocked her teeth out. I think people who are in shock are known to act without even being aware they are acting ... male or female. The second possibility would be she is lying.

The thing in her favor that makes me feel she is being honest is that she attempted to press charges against him not knowing he had later died in the hospital. She had to think he was not as badly injured as he was, I would think.

It would be intersting to know what any of the actual witnesses to the event said about it.
<BR><center> "Snowflakes are one of nature's most fragile things, but just look <br> what they can do when they stick together.." ... Vesta M. Kelly</center>
User avatar
Nyufrost
Frost Advisor
Frost Advisor
 
Posts: 5534
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:03 am
Location: Out There

Postby Gigafrost » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:24 pm

Except there is interesting evidence in the article that suggests that she might have been overly aggressive in the first place...

The Brooklyn district attorney's office confirmed that Bonds had been granted an order of protection from Rhinehart in April that had expired Friday. Rhinehart allegedly had threatened him with knives and a gun.


In addition, a shoe is not designed to kill a person, where-as a gun is. It would seem to me that "accidently" killing with an item not designed to kill would be not only worse-off but it would also imply that she took it way too far.

Oh, and it's quite possible to pin somebody's arms at their sides when you sit on their chest. It's not very easy to get 220 pounds off of you, then. Or maybe she knocked him unconscious in the first hit like you suggested? In which case maybe she shouldn't have kept hitting him...

Or maybe it was because of shock? Well, looking on-line it seems unlikely since, as described by the website I found, "Shock is a life-threatening condition and requires emergency medical treatment immediately."...since she apparently was able to walk away from the incident I'd say it wasn't really "shock"...possibly something similar, but even still that doesn't make her pounding a somebody's head in with a shoe right. People can temporarily loose their mind and kill somebody unintentionally and *still* get convicted of murder.

You're right. The system is not really equal or just. Lady justice is not blind. She's peeking out from behind her blindfold, feeling more sympathetic to women than men who do the same exact crime.
User avatar
Gigafrost
Frost Weapon
Frost Weapon
 
Posts: 4900
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:09 pm
Location: Here

Postby Nyufrost » Wed Jun 25, 2003 12:57 pm

Let me ask you this .... if someone sits on your chest and pins your arms then how can they hit you with a shoe? Now, if they only have one arm pinned, then what are you going to be doing with your other arm? I would be trying to grab that shoe out of their hand or at least covering my head so they could not inflict as much damage.

Did Bonds have such defensive wounds? We have no idea because we are not privvy to the autopsy report at this point.

Now, as for the protection order, note the use of the word "allegedly" which means not proven. Getting a restraining order is pretty simple ... you don't have to prove anything ... all you have to do is file a paper with the court listing any complaint you want to make against someone so that isn't really evidence in itself.

I do disagree that women get away with crimes that men would be convicted of ... I could cite many cases involving female felons being convicted.

Even in this case ... had Reinhart been the initial aggressor and not the defender, things would be quite different and she *would* be charged with homocide.
<BR><center> "Snowflakes are one of nature's most fragile things, but just look <br> what they can do when they stick together.." ... Vesta M. Kelly</center>
User avatar
Nyufrost
Frost Advisor
Frost Advisor
 
Posts: 5534
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:03 am
Location: Out There

Postby TerraFrost » Wed Jun 25, 2003 1:54 pm

Let me ask you this .... if someone sits on your chest and pins your arms then how can they hit you with a shoe? Now, if they only have one arm pinned, then what are you going to be doing with your other arm? I would be trying to grab that shoe out of their hand or at least covering my head so they could not inflict as much damage.

Did Bonds have such defensive wounds? We have no idea because we are not privvy to the autopsy report at this point.


the women was on top - she can pin arms by having her legs go over them (in addition to the stomach). this would leave her hands free. seems easy enough to me. so in that way, i don't think defensive wounds are that big an issue.

I do disagree that women get away with crimes that men would be convicted of ... I could cite many cases involving female felons being convicted.


sure, female felons have been convicted, but i would argue that they are convicted are less then their male counter parts - and that it's far easier to convict a male. also, there was the case a while ago of some repentant women who was to be executed in texas (the first in many many decades). people protested her execution, yet they wouldn't get out of their chair to help a repentant man (ie. the next person who was executed). seems to be a pretty scewed system to me. i think the name was paula fay tucker.

Even in this case ... had Reinhart been the initial aggressor and not the defender, things would be quite different and she *would* be charged with homocide.


i do agree that the jury would probably be less sympathetic then they are now, but... i think they're being too sympathetic, as is. stories of stupid court cases run abound - where would be thiefs must be paid by the family they intended to rob because they were piss poor thieves who fell down stairs, or whatever. if the victims in this case can be found bear guilt, why can't this person? i mean, she bears far more guilt than these people do, yet she gets off with hardly a scratch (from the court case, i mean)
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Nyufrost » Wed Jun 25, 2003 7:58 pm

I think you will find that whereas two guys wrestling around might be able to pin each other --due to equal strength-- a woman would not have the same ability.

But, for the sake of argument, lets say she has somehow managed to do this. How does that account for him not using his legs? How does it account for him not just bucking her off? What did he do, just lay there?

Talking about executions is going off topic, but anti-death penalty advocates protest at ALL executions. Male, female, black, white ... it doesn't matter. In fact, I remember seeing a case profile on a case, in Texas, where the killer --a black male-- spit in the direction of the victim's family and said he was not sorry and would do it again if he could ... yet people were still outside protesting his execution.
<BR><center> "Snowflakes are one of nature's most fragile things, but just look <br> what they can do when they stick together.." ... Vesta M. Kelly</center>
User avatar
Nyufrost
Frost Advisor
Frost Advisor
 
Posts: 5534
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:03 am
Location: Out There

Postby TerraFrost » Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:18 pm

I think you will find that whereas two guys wrestling around might be able to pin each other --due to equal strength-- a woman would not have the same ability.

But, for the sake of argument, lets say she has somehow managed to do this. How does that account for him not using his legs? How does it account for him not just bucking her off? What did he do, just lay there?


judo, a form of martial arts, is all about pinning people in a way that doesn't require strength. now i'm not saying that the person doing the shoe-beating was trained in judo, but... the fact that judo exists should suggest that people can pin other people without strength in mind, if even unintentionally.

as for him trying to buck her off, whose to say he didn't try? hitting skin on skin isn't gonna leave any bruises, i would think. also, if the person doing the beating with the shoe was big enough, she could have pinned his legs as well as his arms.

Talking about executions is going off topic, but anti-death penalty advocates protest at ALL executions. Male, female, black, white ... it doesn't matter. In fact, I remember seeing a case profile on a case, in Texas, where the killer --a black male-- spit in the direction of the victim's family and said he was not sorry and would do it again if he could ... yet people were still outside protesting his execution.


the point is that when a girl was lined up to be executed, a *lot* more people protested. it was on national news, even. a search on karla fay tucker on cnn.com comes up with atleast 7 relevent results:

http://search.cnn.com/cnn/search?source ... ye+Tucker+

in contrast, Michael Lockhart, the person executed right before karla tucker has *no* relevent results on cnn.com:

http://search.cnn.com/cnn/search?source ... l+Lockhart

i'm assuming that that's the person executed before her because his name appears before hers on this site:

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/finalmeals.htm

i have a feeling that you'll find similar results with all males who died on death row. i think this just demonstrates that female criminals get it easier then male criminals do. now, in the case of karla tucker, she didn't, but bush had to endure the cries of the public, which demanded she get special treatment because of her gender. not every person can do that.
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Nyufrost » Wed Jun 25, 2003 8:49 pm

You're right ... men demand special treatment based on their color, social status and sexual preference tho. I recommend if we want to discuss the death penalty we should open a new topic since it's getting pretty far afield from the case we are talking about here. :)

As I have stated several times ... the woman's weight is not a real factor. It is being played up in the media to make it seem more sensational and appealing to the average person.

"oooh big fat woman sits on poor little man!"

1. He weighed 190 himself

2. A man who weighs 190 is as big as a woman who weighs 220

3. A size 12 shoe indicates she is quite tall

4. 220 pounds on a tall woman is not going to make her as "fat" as the press is making her out to be

5. Granted, she is a big woman but Bonds was a big man

6. Their size factors out as relatively equal

7. Strengthwise, the man would have the edge

Assuming she is not a judo champion, professional athlete or body builder ... WHY was Bonds not able to throw her off?

That is the key element if you want to build an excessive force case against her. IF he was unconscious and she kept hitting him then there is your excessive force. IF he was fighting with her and they were battling back and forth ...let's say he was trying to choke her while she was sitting on him... hitting him with her shoe would have been defending herself in a reasonable effort to save her own life.

We just don't know the details so all we can do is speculate. :\

Where is SUP with that autopsy report? Aaaaaaaaaah!
<BR><center> "Snowflakes are one of nature's most fragile things, but just look <br> what they can do when they stick together.." ... Vesta M. Kelly</center>
User avatar
Nyufrost
Frost Advisor
Frost Advisor
 
Posts: 5534
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:03 am
Location: Out There

Postby TerraFrost » Wed Jun 25, 2003 9:07 pm

You're right ... men demand special treatment based on their color, social status and sexual preference tho. I recommend if we want to discuss the death penalty we should open a new topic since it's getting pretty far afield from the case we are talking about here.


i didn't mention the death penality case to talk about death penality - i mentioned it to establish that women do get special treatment - treatment that males don't get. and yes, other people get the same treatment, but just because others do doesn't make it right for women - i don't think it's right for anyone to get special treatment. well, maybe on social status, but like you said, that's a different discussion entirely :)

Assuming she is not a judo champion, professional athlete or body builder ... WHY was Bonds not able to throw her off?


i wasn't saying she was a judo champion. i was saying that judo's mere existance demonstrates that weight isn't necessarily a factor in pinning someone. i mean, judo isn't some sort of holy art handed down to us from god - we discovered it for ourselves - we stumbled upon it, so... why couldn't she just stumble upon it? also, it's quite possible that maybe they teach a few rudimentary pins, or whatever, in self defense classes for women. i think they're often one time things, but around here, they're advertised quite a bit.

a few other things to consider..

After viewing her father's badly battered body, Barnes said she was sure Rhinehart used a weapon besides her shoes. "No size-12 pumps could have done that to him," she said.


(from giga's earlier post quoting the nytimes)

also, i find it hard to believe that she could beat someone to death but not see it. i mean, did the man manage to die without incuring a single visible wound? she should have seen the damage she was doing to him. now perhapes he died of a one in a million shot to the head that resulted in a fatal concussion, or whatever, but, for some reason, i doubt it. that, i would consider to be a rather big omision from the news stories. of course, that is admittedly circumstational, but then again, so are the assumptions that she's not a body builder, weight lifter, or judo champion :lila:

one last thing to consider... the fact that she *could* beat a man to death with her shoe seems to suggest that she is strong.
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Nyufrost » Thu Jun 26, 2003 12:30 am

The main thing you seem to be overlooking is that Bonds attacked her first ... that automatically puts her in a position of self defense, legally.

If she had attacked Bonds first, then the situation would be reversed, but it isn't. Sex has absolutely nothing to do with it ... it is strictly a matter of who attacked who first.

As for the quote from Bonds' daughter, I already addressed that in my response to Giga. That is her opinion --it is speculation on her part not fact-- and she is not a qualified expert on the subject. The medical examiner, who IS a qualified expert, obviously saw it differently.

I am pretty weak but I can guarantee you that if I nailed you in the head with a high heeled shoe that I could do some damage. It's not like she was just battering him with a tennis shoe. Now, just because your scalp bleeds doesn't mean you are near death. I think scalp wounds also bleed slower than flesh wounds so yeah, I can see how you could easily do more damage than you knew you were doing.

The only thing I find questionable at all is why Bonds was unable to get away from her. We can speculate about it but without a trial transcript or more official information, we can't really know the answer.
<BR><center> "Snowflakes are one of nature's most fragile things, but just look <br> what they can do when they stick together.." ... Vesta M. Kelly</center>
User avatar
Nyufrost
Frost Advisor
Frost Advisor
 
Posts: 5534
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:03 am
Location: Out There

Postby Gigafrost » Thu Jun 26, 2003 1:15 am

Well, there's only two ways he was unable to get away and those were...

1) She had pinned his arms *with her legs* making it where he couldn't escape

2) She had beaten him unconscious

3) She had beaten him dead

Also, *YOU* keep saying that just because he attacked first it's all right to kill him. Does that mean I could provoke somebody to get them to attack me and then shoot at them to kill them, later claiming "self-defense" even though I was overly violent?

*YOU* are also dismissing the daughter's analysis completely when I can tell you that it tells us at least one thing: the damage is visible. It's not like a few shoe-prints on his head, she *really* beat his head in.

If she had attacked Bonds first, then the situation would be reversed, but it isn't. Sex has absolutely nothing to do with it ... it is strictly a matter of who attacked who first.
I think this is BS...the jury would see the guy as overly violent and convict him of manslaughter, since aggression seems to be a common view of males. Terrafrost has already demonstrated that the justice system isn't blind to gender.
User avatar
Gigafrost
Frost Weapon
Frost Weapon
 
Posts: 4900
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:09 pm
Location: Here

Postby TerraFrost » Thu Jun 26, 2003 2:11 am

The main thing you seem to be overlooking is that Bonds attacked her first ... that automatically puts her in a position of self defense, legally.


i don't think we're debating that, anymore - i think we're debating whether or not she used excesive force.

As for the quote from Bonds' daughter, I already addressed that in my response to Giga. That is her opinion --it is speculation on her part not fact-- and she is not a qualified expert on the subject. The medical examiner, who IS a qualified expert, obviously saw it differently.


good point.

I think scalp wounds also bleed slower than flesh wounds so yeah, I can see how you could easily do more damage than you knew you were doing.


actually, they bleed more:

http://www.nightimepediatrics.com/Paren ... injury.htm

the exact quote from the article is "facial and scalp wounds bleed heavily" (so you can search the article for it to confirm). so considering that, she should have stopped before.

Now, just because your scalp bleeds doesn't mean you are near death.


not that beating him to near death should have been her goal :lila:

Sex has absolutely nothing to do with it ... it is strictly a matter of who attacked who first.


and that's why she shouldn't be convicted of first degree murder :lila:

manslaughter, however, seems to be a perfectly reasonable punishment. :)
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Nyufrost » Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:39 pm

Gigafrost wrote:Also, *YOU* keep saying that just because he attacked first it's all right to kill him.

I have specifically used terms like "according to the law" and "legally speaking" to indicate that I was citing law and not giving my personal opinion when giving reference to that aspect of the case. I have never thought or said that it was "all right" she killed him. I said she had the right to defend herself since he attacked her first and that *IF* she was involved in a struggle for her life to the bitter end, then it could be justified. That's kinda different from me just saying "hey it's all right to kill anyone who attacks you!" :p

Terra ... we have been debating the use of excessive force since early in the thread. :p In fact, I agreed with Giga a long time back that if she continued to whack Bonds after he was unable to fight back, that she used excessive force. ;)

I stand corrected on the scalp wound bleeding, I wasn't really sure on that so thanks for clearing it up.

Reinhart was indeed charged with manslaughter but the Grand Jury found --by looking at evidence we aren't privvy to-- that she was not responsible for Bonds' death and therefore the case never went to trial.

I share the sentiment Giga expressed earlier about how the heck they decided she wasn't responsible for his death since he died from "blunt trauma" wounds she inflicted with her shoe. I *really* wish more info was available on that but I can't seem to find anything online.

However, instead of dismissing it as "oh it's because she's a woman" maybe we should wonder what the GJ knows that we don't. :)
<BR><center> "Snowflakes are one of nature's most fragile things, but just look <br> what they can do when they stick together.." ... Vesta M. Kelly</center>
User avatar
Nyufrost
Frost Advisor
Frost Advisor
 
Posts: 5534
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:03 am
Location: Out There

Postby TerraFrost » Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:42 pm

just because you don't have *all* the evidence in the world doesn't mean you can't make a decission on what evidence you do have :)

if i waited to decide everything until i knew everything that there was to consider, heh, i would never do anything! :lila:
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Nyufrost » Thu Jun 26, 2003 7:57 pm

Making a decision whether or not to see a movie you don't know if will be any good is hardly the same as prejudging a person's guilt without knowing the facts. ;)
<BR><center> "Snowflakes are one of nature's most fragile things, but just look <br> what they can do when they stick together.." ... Vesta M. Kelly</center>
User avatar
Nyufrost
Frost Advisor
Frost Advisor
 
Posts: 5534
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:03 am
Location: Out There

Previous

Return to The Nifelheim Justice League

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest