does art reflect or affect?

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does art reflect or affect?

Postby TerraFrost » Wed Feb 12, 2003 8:14 am

Evlfrost's thread over the top 100 people of the centuray made me think... how important is art, really?

or rather... does art reflect society, or affect it?

if the latter, then it would be pretty darned important to society, and writters, painters, or whatever, should be ranked high on a list of the top 100 most imporant people of the centray, millinium, or whatever.

if it were the former, than bah. art may be useful for historians, trying to piece together what a society was like. old pieces of art would mean that certain qualities had endured, or had been rediscovered, sorta, but.... all in all, it would mean that artists really shouldn't be ranked with important people like newton, or whomever...

so watcha think? :)
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Postby Evlfrost » Wed Feb 12, 2003 2:42 pm

I belive that it reflects. You can tell a lot about a society because of its art.
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Postby Dracofrost » Wed Feb 12, 2003 6:33 pm

Sure, Evl, you can tell a lot about a society by it's art, but that can really point either way (learning about a society because of how it was affected by it's art, or learning about a society from art that reflects said society's values). I myself, am unsure. I think, that, in a way, it could do both? You understand the truely great an sweepignart, that could inspire people, make them do great things, thus changing society. Yet on the other hand, other art is created just to portray people and things, so that would probably just be reflections. So, for now, let's say I'm undecided on this issue but thinking that art could both reflect and affect society.
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Postby Evlfrost » Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:06 pm

Art is ussaly a reflection. Look at the ancient Greeks. Their art was just like their mindset. In the medival times where everything was stangnat, their art was too. Art didnt pick back up until the renisaance. Todays movies, music, etc. is just like or mindset. But however there are some people who are ahead of their time, but that is very rare.
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Postby Nyufrost » Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:05 pm

Well ... here is an example. My favorite modern painter is Thomas Kinkade. He makes beautiful paintings of serene, inspirational and peaceful places. I have been able to see many of his originals at his gallery. They are breathtaking but they certainly do not reflect what today's society is about. If so, people viewing them 500 years from now might think what a wonderful and placid time in which we lived.

I think Kinkade's paintings reflect an idealization of what people would like society to be like ... a utopian paradise full of peace and love. And, when you look at his paintings, you *do* get that feeling, even if only for a little while. ^_^

Anyone interested in seeing artwork by Thomas Kinkade can visit his ONLINE GALLERY ... I hope someone enjoys it as much as I do. :)
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Postby TerraFrost » Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:00 am

i heard about Thomas Kinkade on 60 Minutes... Thomas Kinkade speculated that the popularity of Picasso was just a passing fad that would be gone in 20 or 30 years. Some fans of Kinkade's art were intreviewed, and they said they prefered Kinkade over people like Picasso because they didn't have to have the painting explained to them.

Anyways, the end conclusion of the piece on him was that Thomas Kinkade was pretty much a shallow painter who just happened to be a marketing wizard.
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Postby Nuxius » Thu Feb 13, 2003 7:13 am

Yeah, my brother in-law's mother's cousion (ouch) is friends with Thomas Kinkade, so she has some of his paintings around her house that her cousion gave to her.
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Postby Nyufrost » Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:20 am

Maybe you should look at his work before you agree it is shallow. Would you also term Claude Monet as a shallow marketing genius? The work is similar and Monet is my favorite classic painter.

Heck, my mom has some Bob Ross videos and I think he's awesome. Talk about making cheap quickie paintings! But, at least it's fun and inspiring to watch him and what *should* art be about except enjoyment.

That enjoyment is going to be different for everyone.

Some people prefer florals, garden scenes and cottages and therefore would enjoy Monet and Kinkade; other people like bold splashy blobs of paint just spattered aimlessly on a canvas so any of us could please them; some people like seascapes, some people like the impressionistic stuff. I personally am not fond of it.

I think some people "pretend" to like surrealistic and impressionistic art because they think it makes them seem sophisticated. Well, if the enjoyment they get is in feeling cosmopolitan then what's wrong with that though?
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Postby TerraFrost » Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:05 pm

Maybe you should look at his work before you agree it is shallow. Would you also term Claude Monet as a shallow marketing genius?


ummm... i wasn't agreeing with anything. i didn't state *my* opinion on kinkade one way or another. i just said what the end conclusion of the show was... where the heck did i come into this anyways?

that said, i have seen Kinkade's work, and... it doesn't seem to capture any emotion. it just seems to capture pretty pictures. same with what little i have seen of monet. however... emotionless / shallow artwork can be, as kinkade has proven, popular. nothings wrong with that. i'm not saying anything is wrong with it. all i'm saying, and all the 60 minutes interview was saying is that he is a shallow painter, who doesn't capture the same emotional depth as picasso. no one is saying that there's anything wrong with that. sheesh!
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Postby Nyufrost » Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:11 pm

First of all, you didn't originally state it was the end conclusion of the show ... it could have been the end conclusion of you. ;) But, sorry for misinterpretting.

Have you ever seen a Picasso? What emotional depth does it capture? Would it not be different for all viewers?

To me, Picasso is junk. I don't like it. I don't see anything so great about it while other people think he is a genious. The works of Monet and Kinkade are certainly not shallow and cheap to those who appreciate their art.

But, I already gave my opinion on the question of the topic. Art affects society not reflects it. Let's use anime as an example. 500 years from now will people look back and say "wow, people sure looked weird back then! My how we have evolved!" ~ ? I doubt it. But, anime certainly affects a lot of people ... they get crushes on the characters, want to look like the characters, try to copy the style and draw their own characters, etc. etc. etc.
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Postby TerraFrost » Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:40 pm

First of all, you didn't originally state it was the end conclusion of the show ... it could have been the end conclusion of you.


well, i did say it was the end conclusion of the piece - to me, that indicates the show :lila:

To me, Picasso is junk. I don't like it. I don't see anything so great about it while other people think he is a genious. The works of Monet and Kinkade are certainly not shallow and cheap to those who appreciate their art.


personally, i like picasso's because they are portraits of something you can't just look out and see. granted, you'll probably never see as idealized a landscape as the ones in kinkade's paintings, but... it doesn't take much to imagine it, imho. in contrast, no amount of imagination could produce something like picasso did. they're artistic, yet original. as for the emotional depth it captures... if there is no possible way i could have, through imaginiation, come up with the stuff that picasso did, then one has to wonder about picasso... what made picasso's imaginiation so much grandeur? it's his emotional state of mind, imho. so picasso's are sorta captures of emotion... portraits from people who have unique emotional states, or whatever....
and anyways, yes... it would be different for all viewers... we're not picasso... we can't know what he was feeling - we can only extrapolate. it's sorta like the rosharc ink blotch test psychologists use to determine personality types... so of course it's gonna be different - i'm not saying it shouldn't be. i'm just explaining my side :lila:

anyways, to get back on topic, and to address your points...

while i think anime will impact the future, somewhat, i don't think the ways you propose it could are really all that dramatic. i mean, if anime introduces a new drawing style... i guess that could be an example of how it affected society, but how does that drawing style affect society? that alone would be a pretty shallow impact, imho.

fantasies, sci-fi, anime, or whatever can present new potential directions science, or forign policy, or whatever, can take. for example, the concept of faster than light travel was, i believe, popularized by st:tos (star trek the original series). since then, there has been some, albeit unsuccesful research done in that field. would that research have been done if it weren't for st:tos? further, if that research were to actually lead to faster than light travel, wouldn't that then be a direct result of a form of art? well... maybe not a very culutured form, but still...

stories like 1984 offer warnings that may, quite possibly have an effect on governmental policy.

further, tragedies or love stories, like romeo and juliet, hamlet, or whatever, can offer political leaders insights into their "subjects" - insight that could perhapes be used to guide domestic policy, or whatever... also, paintings could do the same thing.

also... atleast from what i've observed of comedy, it seems that most comedy actually has a point. comedy may just be the only outlet for that point...

so i think it does both. art can reflect the lives of everyday citizens, then later be viewed by someone with power, and then those lives can be affected by that art.

and it works on a smaller scale, as well... some bully reads a book about bullies, or sees a painting, or whatever, and is inspired to stop bullying others...
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Postby Evlfrost » Fri Feb 14, 2003 3:33 pm

TerraFrost wrote:while i think anime will impact the future, somewhat, i don't think the ways you propose it could are really all that dramatic. i mean, if anime introduces a new drawing style... i guess that could be an example of how it affected society, but how does that drawing style affect society? that alone would be a pretty shallow impact, imho.

fantasies, sci-fi, anime, or whatever can present new potential directions science, or forign policy, or whatever, can take. for example, the concept of faster than light travel was, i believe, popularized by st:tos (star trek the original series). since then, there has been some, albeit unsuccesful research done in that field. would that research have been done if it weren't for st:tos? further, if that research were to actually lead to faster than light travel, wouldn't that then be a direct result of a form of art? well... maybe not a very culutured form, but still...



I dont belive anime will have much affect on the future as only us dorks watch it :lila:

SciF-fi however has had an effect on the future and will continue to do so. Many a sceinctist got some of his ideas from HG Wells and Jules Verne.
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Feb 14, 2003 6:49 pm

I dont belive anime will have much affect on the future as only us dorks watch it


so are you saying that dorks themselves won't have an effect on the future? :lila:
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Postby Javafrost » Sun Feb 16, 2003 9:00 am

I dont belive anime will have much affect on the future as only us dorks watch it
so are you saying that dorks themselves won't have an effect on the future?

heh-heh. I'm pretty sure Einstein was considered a "dork" by some in his youth.
I think art in all it's forms both reflects and affects. How important is it? Depends on how much of your brain you want to use.
I like the Thomas Kinkade, by the way. Thanks! I like his use of color. That "Beside Still Waters" is fantastic! A cousin of mine was living in Naples, Italy for a while, and said the light there is very different, which is why many artists go there to do their stuff. I think that might be true in Hawaii, too. The Thomas Kinkade pictures on the gallery site Nyufrost pointed to show what I imagine that "special" light to be like. Not shallow at all, from my point of view.
I've never understood or cared for Picasso's work, but I acknowledge that it must have meaning to a lot of people, else it wouldn't be so popular.
It seems to me that when looking at ancient civilizations, if we figure that their art was like their mindset, isn't the image we have of their mindset based at least partly on their art? Which comes first the art or the mindset (the chicken or the egg)?
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Postby Evlfrost » Tue Feb 18, 2003 3:17 pm

Dorks will have influence on the future. Just that anime will probably not play a big part in it. How does watching Asuka yelling at Shinji or Narusegawa punching Keitaro affect the mindset of people?
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