hackers, and their punishment?

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hackers, and their punishment?

Postby TerraFrost » Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:03 am

so... what do ya'll think should be done to hackers? on one hand, they're just kids committing the equivilant of vandelism, yet on the other, they're costing the companies they hack millions and sometimes billions of dollars a year...
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Postby Gigafrost » Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:38 am

Personally, I don't think there's a problem with most hackers...there's a bunch more than implied by your statement...at least, by the original definition of "hacker" that I accepted...

A hacker could be anybody that uses a computer to solve their problems, could it not? You, for example, install "hacks" to upgrade our board, so are not the programmers of these "hackers"?

I don't remember the difference between hacker and cracker but I remember what I read about the word "hacker"....how it degenerated into the current view....and how I choose to use the older version...

Anywho, dealing more with the type of computer-user you're refering to; I don't know. Everything I think of either seems to harsh or too easy...
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Postby Evlfrost » Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:43 pm

Well most hackers are just kids who have waaay to much time on their hands. I think that how you deal with hackers should depend on their age, and motive.
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Postby Raistlin » Thu Jan 30, 2003 5:21 pm

ya it should depend on their age and motive....

maybe there should be like an H.A. group.. :p (hackers anonymous)
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Postby Evlfrost » Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:15 pm

Would anybody go there? It would be kinda self incrimidating.
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Postby Nyufrost » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:22 pm

Well ... using your age to try and get away with something you know is wrong is pretty lame. This is why many states will now try kids as adults ... because they *are* so much more savvy than kids of earlier generations when the laws were originally written.

I would say that every 12 year old online knows it's wrong.

Many "hackers" are kids who just know a few computer tricks to scare their friends and are harmless pranksters. The "script kiddies" who couldn't hack their way out of a paper bag but know how to run/execute malicious scripts and programs, are definitely cyber vandals and should be dealt with more harshly than they are.

Then there are hackers who can get into a website or message board ... I think these are the ones called crackers since all they have to do is crack the Admin pw in order to get in .... some of these types do it maliciously to get even with people they don't like. However, the ones who belong to "crews" do it mainly for the adreneline rush and they back up the site on a mirror location before defacing it and leave instructions for the Admin on where to find it. They see themselves as performing sort of a "security check" and aren't especially malicious. So, should they be penalized equally, when one is actually doing a favor to a company or organization by pointing out their security flaws?

Then there are the truly advanced ones who can break into government systems and steal info and do other damage.

Obviously, they should be punished more heavily than the malicious "script kiddie" but then again, if the penalty was a little stiffer for getting caught sending out viruses and doing other evil deeds, then I think there would be less of it.

Also, there would need to be some international law because it wouldn't work very well if it's only implemented in the USA.
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Postby TerraFrost » Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:40 pm

Personally, I don't think there's a problem with most hackers...there's a bunch more than implied by your statement...at least, by the original definition of "hacker" that I accepted...

A hacker could be anybody that uses a computer to solve their problems, could it not? You, for example, install "hacks" to upgrade our board, so are not the programmers of these "hackers"?

I don't remember the difference between hacker and cracker but I remember what I read about the word "hacker"....how it degenerated into the current view....and how I choose to use the older version...


yeah... there is a distinction, but... i don't think the media really makes that distinction. i think the only people who make that distinction are computer savy people, actually, heh.

Well ... using your age to try and get away with something you know is wrong is pretty lame. This is why many states will now try kids as adults ... because they *are* so much more savvy than kids of earlier generations when the laws were originally written.


well... kids aren't permitted to sign contracts because they're not expected to know the full ramifications of what they are signing away too...
so while a kid may know a that what he is doing is wrong, i'm not sure he'd be able to appreciate the harm he was doing to hisself, and to others. i mean, kids dont have any concept of money. kids can't imagine losing billions of dollars, nor can kids really imagine themselves being put in prison for life... so i don't think they can really be held all that accountable for what they are doing, as they don't really know *all* that they're doing, probably...
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Postby Nyufrost » Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:26 am

I don't think I mentioned "prison for life" as a suggested punishment.

And, the main reason kids aren't allowed to sign contracts is because they have no assets to back them not because they can't understand the contract. For example, if you are a child actor with big bucks, then yes, you can sign a contract. ;)

However, not being legally old enough to sign a contract has little to do with knowing something is wrong and going ahead and doing it.
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:44 am

I don't think I mentioned "prison for life" as a suggested punishment.


i was trying to say what the going punishment seems to be, but, hehe - i don't think that's right, either :lila:

And, the main reason kids aren't allowed to sign contracts is because they have no assets to back them not because they can't understand the contract. For example, if you are a child actor with big bucks, then yes, you can sign a contract.


for someone who's 17, i don't think age is really all that important. i mean, i've known plenty of mature 17 year olds. however, the gap between 12 and 17 is rather big (well, as far as kids are concerned). while a substantial percent of 17 year olds may be mature, i think a very insubstantional percent of 12 year olds are mature, and can appreciate what the ramifications of their actions.

However, not being legally old enough to sign a contract has little to do with knowing something is wrong and going ahead and doing it.


but kids who've never seen anything of right and wrong for themselves, and have only been told what's right and wrong from there parents really don't have any sort of appreciation for what's right and wrong. i mean, stealing someone's lunch money is wrong. so is hacking a big corporate website. would a youngster be able to differentiate between which one was more wrong, and which one was less wrong? or rather, more to the point, which one he would get in trouble for, and which one he wouldn't? i mean, just because you know what's right and what's wrong doesn't mean you know what's more wrong than other wrongs, so to speak, heh.
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Postby Evlfrost » Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:35 am

Well the thing is that most kids do it to see if they can. Someone should set up something for people to get that out of their system.
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Postby Nyufrost » Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:42 am

TerraFrost, with regard to the youngster having to differentiate for himself what is more right and more wrong by experience .... parents are able to teach little Johnny that murdering a person is wrong yet it is ok to squash the life out of bugs, so what is the big deal about teaching him the wrongs of hacking?
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Jan 31, 2003 1:58 am

TerraFrost, with regard to the youngster having to differentiate for himself what is more right and more wrong by experience .... parents are able to teach little Johnny that murdering a person is wrong yet it is ok to squash the life out of bugs, so what is the big deal about teaching him the wrongs of hacking?


eh... that's not what i mean. i mean, parents will teach there kids (probably) that stealing is wrong, and that murdering is wrong. however, if the kid steals some other kids lunch money, what's the worst that will happen to the kid? he'll get a spanking, or something? well, whoop-de-doo. anyways, if spanking is the only punishment he knows for doing something wrong, so what if he kills someone? as far as he knows, he'll just get another spanking.

and even if he did know murder was more wrong than theft, would he know how much more worng it was?
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Postby Evlfrost » Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:14 pm

Well my point is that most hackers do not have a malicous intent. They are merely just bored kids seeing if they can do something.
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Postby Nyufrost » Sat Feb 08, 2003 8:13 am

TerraFrost, how old were you before you learned that if you kill someone you will get more than just a spanking? I think *most* kids learn pretty early on what is right and wrong and what the consequences are. You do NOT need to murder someone to know you will go to prison for life --if convicted-- and that prison is a bad-bad-bad place to be! So, why would kids not be able to learn that maliciously messing with things electronically is bad-bad? Hmmm?
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Postby TerraFrost » Sat Feb 08, 2003 8:30 am

actually, i don't think i really gave murder a second thought when i was a kid, heh, so... while i might have realized it was a bad bad thing to do if i were to contemplate doing it, i didn't contemplate it, so :-p

and anyways, even if kids did see murder as wrong, what about hacking? i mean, people graffiti, i would think, just because they want to see themselves as part of something bigger than themselves, so to speak... they sorta want to immortalize their name. of course, graffiti won't immortalize your name, but they might not really be able to comprehend that at their age. anyways, i think hacking is just the same way. you're not necessarily immortalizing yourself by making yourself respected among fellow hackers, but rather by affiliating yourself with something that's bigger than yourself? i dunno...
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