swiftboat vets and the election

Trippy discussions of moral issues, conspiracy theories, the paranormal and other otherworldly phenomenon.

Moderator: Dracofrost

swiftboat vets and the election

Postby Roadkill » Wed Oct 20, 2004 11:51 pm

i don't think there is much else to say except that this should be one of the central parts of the election.

So what do you think about this? (http://www.swiftvets.com)
Image
<center>The secret's in the wings...
User avatar
Roadkill
Heroic Guard
 
Posts: 2847
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 5:18 am
Location: somewhere

Postby TerraFrost » Thu Oct 21, 2004 1:18 am

i think it might have been prudent for you to have given a summary, but since you didn't, i will...

the swiftboat veterans for truth claim that kerry didn't deserve the three purple hearts that he recieved during the vietnam war, among other things.

anyway, i think these guys are to the republican party as michael moore is to the democratic party - they're propagandists. however, unlike michael moore, they seem to do a little more than omit critical bits of information - they just make some facts up, on the spot, as evidenced by the following graphic (they're in the second half - the first part of the table containing them has what they said, and the parts underneath show the contradictory parts):

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/200 ... _graph.gif

also, i trust the conclusions of the navy inspector general - vice admiral r.a. route - that "the awards approval process was properly followed" (ref). pursuent to that, if kerry didn't deserve his medals, then it's questionable whether anyone else whose ever recieved a purple heart deserved there's, as well.

incidently, they've also accused kerry's accusations of dishonoring vietnam soldiers. this is somewhat ironic when you consider that their accusations could, by way of precident, reduce the prestigue anyone whose recieved a purple heart is due.
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Roadkill » Thu Oct 21, 2004 5:29 pm

You have come to focus on just one part of the swift boat vets' protest.

They are not just working out the purple heart's issue. The idea is to show Kerry's actual character. He got shrapnel from a mortar round he shot at some nearby rocks -- by his own stupidity, and that was his first wound, covered with a band-aid for god's sake! He was originally turned down, then re-applied for it higher up the chain of command and somehow got the purple heart.

Even if he did get the other 2 heart's in a more appropriate fashion, he went home 8 months early. A tour of duty at 'nam is supposed to be 1 year, he stayed only 4 months, and was actually encourage by other commanders to leave, under citation of an obscure article allowing soldiers with 3 purple hearts to request reassignment.

I try to tell myself to think of kerry only for what he could do for our country, and seperate his character from him. But if we so bad a commander that he was encouraged to leave 'nam, was hated by his troops, and had a whiny character before and after the war... what in hte hell?

I will admit i have not read any of his books or articles about "how his people severely mistreated the vietnamese," but their message seems pretty damn clear based on others reveiws. Even if these were true, it is a testament of his own helplessness, because he as an officer should be able to control his own troop,s or use certain regulations to seek reveiw of those involved by higher ups.

I sure as hell won't for kerry after having read this.
Image
<center>The secret's in the wings...
User avatar
Roadkill
Heroic Guard
 
Posts: 2847
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 5:18 am
Location: somewhere

Postby TerraFrost » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:02 pm

They are not just working out the purple heart's issue.

no, but that's the bulk of it, as evidenced by the fact that the purple heart issue is the issue you first chose to address.

The idea is to show Kerry's actual character.

just as Michael Moore's latest documentary is an attempt to show Bush's actual character?

He got shrapnel from a mortar round he shot at some nearby rocks -- by his own stupidity, and that was his first wound, covered with a band-aid for god's sake! He was originally turned down, then re-applied for it higher up the chain of command and somehow got the purple heart.

i think, ultimately, it is quite foolish to question the legitimacy of kerry's purple hearts when, as i observed before, the navy inspector general, himself, said they're awarding was legit.

second, where do you get that he "got shrapnel from a mortar round he shot at some nearby rocks -- by his own stupidity, and that was his first wound, covered with a band-aid"? from the swiftboat veterans for truth? as i've already established, they're hardly trustworthy. if you can provide an independant source verifying this (ie. a link to some army report, or something), i'll believe this. otherwise, i'm gonna have to dismiss this just as so many die-hard republicans have dismissed michael moore's claims.

Even if he did get the other 2 heart's in a more appropriate fashion, he went home 8 months early . A tour of duty at 'nam is supposed to be 1 year, he stayed only 4 months, and was actually encourage by other commanders to leave, under citation of an obscure article allowing soldiers with 3 purple hearts to request reassignment.

this is hardly the main rallying point of the swift boat veterans for truth. and even if it were, it wouldn't be a very good one. kerry protested the vietnam war. he didn't like it, but as long as he was in vietnam, there wasn't much he could do, about it. i mean, it isn't as if john kerry, after vietnam, did nothing, but rest and relax. he was a very active opponent of the war, as evidenced by this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_kerry ... 70-1971.29

just because john kerry didn't take the opinion you, apparently, think he should have taken, doesn't mean he didn't serve this country to the best of his ability.

But if we so bad a commander that he was encouraged to leave 'nam, was hated by his troops, and had a whiny character before and after the war... what in hte hell?

i don't know how many times i can say it. claims that the swift boat vets make should not be taken at face value, without independant verification.

as for his whiny character before the war - what in the hell? he requested to be sent to vietnam. how is that whiny?

as for his whiny character after the war - so? is everyone who questions the status quo a whiner? there's a word for people who perscribe to ideas like that - homophobes. a famous homophobe you may have heard of is Eric Robert Rudolph.

Even if these were true, it is a testament of his own helplessness, because he as an officer should be able to control his own troop,s or use certain regulations to seek reveiw of those involved by higher ups.

kinda like abu ghraib prison, eh? all the officers staffed there must either be inherently evil, for being so complacent while prisoners got abused as they did, or they must have been totally helpless, for being unable to do anything, as prisoners got abused. so, remember - no soldier at abu ghraib will ever make a good president, because all soldiers at abu ghraib are inherently bad leaders.

I sure as hell won't for kerry after having read this.

yet you'll vote for bush after watching farinheight 9/11?

additionally, while swift boat veterans for truth sympathizers will often observe that kerry hasn't released his records to prove to the contrary, it should be noted that those in the swift boat vets haven't released their own records:

Similarly SBVT members have refused to release documents. A journal by another of the Swift boat commanders and the relevant Navy records of some of the SBVT members involved in specific allegations have not been released.

source

to readdress this point that you made:

You have come to focus on just one part of the swift boat vets' protest.

if you're going to critisize my post, then let us consider how i've responded to every point you've made, whereas you've just conveniently ignored most of mine. please tell me your case isn't so weak as to justify this.

in conclusion, i think both bush and kerry (despite your and the swift boat vets claims to the contrary) genuinly want the best for this country. bush just seems to think that the best for this country can be achieved to catering to the wealthy, and by pursuing wars that are now hurting us more than they are helping us. i don't agree with that, and i don't think bush ought to win the next election, but i don't think he's an inherently evil man, either, like you seem to think of kerry.
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Roadkill » Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:53 pm

grar, damnit terra, you are a major propoganda buster. Trust-busters, mythbusters, propogandabusters. What's left to cover?

i apologize for my arrogant mind.
Image
<center>The secret's in the wings...
User avatar
Roadkill
Heroic Guard
 
Posts: 2847
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2002 5:18 am
Location: somewhere

Postby shahmask » Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:15 am

also roadkill, there are plenty of swiftboat veterans for kerry.
User avatar
shahmask
Castle Guard
 
Posts: 508
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 4:07 am
Location: in the valley of silicon hills

so

Postby chaco taco91 » Tue Oct 26, 2004 2:32 am

id have to say this dosn't make really much of a difference, becuase the only reason its big is because its a non bush supported aid and its showing its against kerry, and for some reason that not right to show ur against kerry if ur for bush. and comparing this to Michael moore is a little stupid becuase michael mores film went all across the united states ( and in France and is shown in cuba on T.V.) and the swift boat aids are only shown like once a week or something in 3 states.
chaco taco91
Traveler
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:45 pm

Postby tsian » Tue Oct 26, 2004 3:32 am

Because it's a blatantly false ad. It's unfortunate that politics stoops to this level and that there aren't any truth-in-advertising laws with backbone
Vive le titre de deux.
In an ironic twist, the only trait I find completely appaling is intolerance.
User avatar
tsian
Castle Guard
 
Posts: 683
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:19 am
Location: BC, Canada


Return to Twilight Zone

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron