Hunting

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Postby Evlfrost » Wed Jan 22, 2003 6:56 pm

Hmm....My brother tells me not to think of it was a sport; but more like "enviromental friendly population control". As for that whole elephant thing: they are not real hunters and we shouldnt be talking about them.
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Postby BluKing » Sun Jan 26, 2003 5:38 am

You shouldn't take things personally in a philosphical discussion. Check your ego at the door and try to keep an open mind. It's important not to get worked up about someone else's opinion. Not just in these type of encounters but in life as well.
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Postby Rao » Sun Jan 26, 2003 6:27 am

Give me a bow with 5 arrows and i can get you thanksgiving. As for killing Elephants, i think is pathedic and just flat out heartless. They are an amazing creature, but it is the same thin with trees. But we cant do much about it.
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Postby Rend » Sun Jan 26, 2003 6:42 am

I'm not sure whether or not it should be considered sport or not, but lets look at the facts here:

Fact: Humans have digestive organs to eat plants.

Conclusion: We were gatherers at one point, and remain so today. We just grow our gatherings in nice little plots of land.

Fact: Humans have digestive organs to eat meat.

Conclusion: Humans were built this way because we ate meat. Further speculation follows.

Fact: Humans have opposable thumbs, which make for hands capable of handling objects finely.

Conclusion: Rather than being equipped with claws and fangs, humans were equipped with the ability to use items to aid them in their hunts. This, paired with the fact that we do eat meat, would suggest that we were supposed to use these tools to hunt.

Fact: Even armed to the teeth, hunting a predator, such as a great cat, is dangerous.

Conclusion: Rifles and claws balance out with each other. The great cat predators are armed with great speed, physical power, and the ability to rend their victims. Humans are armed not with great speed or built-in weaponry, only the aforementioned opposable thumbs.

Fact: Predators in the wild have a hard time (but make it) when chasing prey.

Conclusion: From the earlier conclusion that rifles and claws are balanced weapons, this would mean that, in fact, the prey is built to evade such attack. If the predator (man) is willing to devote the time and energy to sneak up behind a deer and shoot it, or lie in wait in a tree for one to pass by, they've earned their kill.

Over all: So, IMO, hunting would be a fair sport. You've got one force trying to stop the other force from destroying it. The hunter is armed with a rifle, while the deer is armed with the ability to look both ways at once, a sharp sense of hearing, and the sense to run away at the slightest hint of danger.

Though the sides might not be 'competing', so to speak, they are balanced, and in opposition. It would probably be easier to envision if the hunter had no other means of getting a meal than hunting- because then both lives would be on the line. However, since such is not the case in modern days, the feeling is emulated by hunters today.
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Postby Nyufrost » Sun Jan 26, 2003 7:44 am

You have put a lot of thought into your argument, Rend. However ....

The hunter is equipped with a spotlight and it is known to freeze a deer in its tracks so they can get a clear shot for the kill. How very sporting.

What I do not understand is why some of you keep comparing a man hunting as a game to an animal hunting to survive. That is not a valid or fair comparison.

So, the big cat might claw man to death if he didn't have a gun. What business does he have attacking the cat anyway? It certainly isn't to eat it. And, what sort of sporting gentleman will hunt a species to extinction just to satisfy his ego? So much for man's brain being superior. Have you ever seen interviews with these people on TV? Their basic attitude is "who cares?"

As for man having the digestive tract to eat meat it does not necessarily follow that he was a predator. I already mentioned that scientists think man was a scavenger like hyenas and jackals.

In the natural food chain, all animals prey off of something weaker than themselves. A fox may be very clever and crafty but it is no match for a mountain lion, for example, so intelligence really should not be a factor in determining who eats who in the food chain. There are very few things man could actually defeat in hand to hand combat.
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Postby Rao » Mon Jan 27, 2003 2:30 am

Yes, men hide behind there guns. I hate guns and snap when i see them. Thats why i never want a gun pointed at me, i will go insane. That is also why i take kendo :)
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Postby OmegaFrost » Mon Jan 27, 2003 3:38 am

Bluking I was trying to be modest. And finally here is hopefully a point that will end this discussion. Nyu do you not consider fishing a sport?
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Postby Nyufrost » Mon Jan 27, 2003 7:00 am

Omega ... why must there be an "end" to the discussion? This is not a test and there is no right or wrong answer ... just people discussing their opinions.

No, I do NOT consider fishing a sport! I think catching them commercially in a net and eating them is one thing.

I think putting some live little thing on a hook and waving it around in the water so a fish will chomp on the hook and then you can rip it loose and run a rope thru its' mouth and out its' gills so you can keep it in the water while you catch more is horribly inhumane.

If you don't think so, you could always try shoving a rope up your nose and pulling it out through your mouth or try biting down on a fish hook and then asking someone to rip it out of your mouth. (No, seriously, don't try that at home but do try to imagine the pain.)
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Postby Evlfrost » Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:42 pm

Note to Nyu. No ethical hunter would do anything to give himself an unfair advantage ie. use of a spotlight.
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Postby OmegaFrost » Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:47 pm

Nyu the thing is all you are doin is simply presenting stereotypes that are not necissarily true. You are being presented with truths and conterdicting them with untruths. And the reason that this should end is because no one is listening to each other. And about fishing: Alot of fisherman dont do most of the things that you describe and try and make it painless for the fish, which if big enough will actually be eaten.
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Postby TerraFrost » Mon Jan 27, 2003 11:58 pm

first, an opinion is neither truth or not truth. both nyufrost and you, OmegaFrost, are presenting, for the most part, opinions, and neither one is any more true than the other, by virtue of the fact that they're opinions.

and if you *really* think it should end, OmegaFrost, why don't you take the innitiative? :lila:
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Postby Nyufrost » Tue Jan 28, 2003 12:34 am

Omegafrost ... I assume you are familiar with a fish hook? How is having that in your mouth going to be painless?

And, since you have made a rather vicious accusation, I would like you to back it up with specific examples where you have submitted a truth and I have countered with an untruth. It is a rather low tactic if you can't back it up.

I have been using facts and opinion based on my personal observations ... please do post which of my facts and opinions are considered by you to be untrue.
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Postby Rend » Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:23 am

I agree with Terra in that this is a debate and facts should provide the base while opinions should provide the arguments. Otherwise, we'd just be trying to prove each other wrong, now wouldn't we?

As it stands now, we're trying to sway each other in the opposite direction.

----

I would like to point out that sport fishermen almost always throw the fish back after being caught if they don't plan to eat the fish later.

It is, undoubtedly, painful for the fish. However, there are rewards on both sides. If the fisherman successfully catches the fish, he has enjoyed the catch and can eat the fish if he desires, or throw it back, or whatnot. He's proven superiority by overpowering the fish.

Many fish, though, are very strong and put up quite a fight versus the fisherman. In the cases where the fisherman fails to catch the fish, the fish would end up with a painful hole in the jaw, yes, but also with the bait that he sought out in the first place.

Not to mention that the fish has now proven superiority by overpowering the man.

The rewards/consequences may be unbalanced, but seldom are forces equal in all aspects.
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Postby Raistlin » Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:39 am

I go fishing all the time and I abide by all the Florida fishing rules like if the

fish i catch are less than the legal size limit I throw it back. Also the holes

in the fishes mouths doesnt take long to heal and if the hook gets stuck it

usually justs rusts and falls off....(thats over time tho)

I have my fishing permit and snook license. I throw all the fish back that

look like they're female and carrying babies.....So it doesn't harm the

population. There are ppl i see tho take little illegal fish the size of like

a piece of bread...I always hope they get caught and fined instead of just

throwing it back....
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Postby OmegaFrost » Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:22 pm

Thats it if I reply to this anymore I will probably end up with every one hating me and me hating everyone! Sop if anyone catches me posting in this thread again please remind me that I dont want to post in this thred anymore! And I am sorry Nyu that I am insulting you but I get very worked up when I take things directly out of the most believed and comprohensive book on human evolution, and no one belives me. So I am going to stop replying in this thread as of now.
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