Humans and Animals

Trippy discussions of moral issues, conspiracy theories, the paranormal and other otherworldly phenomenon.

Moderator: Dracofrost

Postby BluKing » Fri Jan 17, 2003 5:58 pm

You're starting on a whole new topic here
but to clairify, Animals do sometimes kill when not looking for food...but that's to protect their turf and sometimes(rarely) they kill so that they can mate with a superior female/male...but usually it's just a roar or a small bout that decides it.

Also...people don't have the natural urge too kill. Many people can't even fathom killing someone. Hunting for sport...look at what you've called it. Hunting for sport is exactly that...a sport. A competition. People hunt so they can get the biggest game. It has nothing to do with satisfying a non existant urge for killing but rather an unhealthy urge to compete. Many hunters kill animals too asert dominance over it, or to show it off too friends. Others do it so other people think of them as 'real men'.
User avatar
BluKing
Townfolk
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:12 am

Postby Gigafrost » Fri Jan 17, 2003 7:02 pm

Actually, we humans appear to be different from every other land-based mammal...our breathing isn't completely reflexive. With most animals, the breathing is syncronized with the heartbeat. I'm not sure how many don't do this...the show I watched wasn't so specific...but the show said that only water animals have this ability (plus they said it in such a way that implied that land animals don't).

Anyways, the show also talked some about this effect on the sounds we make...we are better able to control how we breathe, and thus we have a well developed vocal box. No, the human superiority is not just in the thumb, or just that we think, it's a combination of things. Biologically, we have one of the most complex brains on the planet. The Sea Slug's brain has only 20,000 nerve cells, some big enough to be seen without a microscope. Humans have over 100 billion and the area is compacted. This, alone, wouldn't do it, but most likely it's a by-product of our opposable thumb (which gives us the ability to manipulate objects incredibly greatly) and our ability to communicate (which allowed knowledge to pass itself on).

In any case, you can take a look at any animal that survives in its environment and you can probably find out what makes that creature superior to other creatures. Size, numbers, sense of smell. For humans, what really makes us superior in this same sense is the sheer number of symbolic references we make\use. Take, for example, spitting on somebody's foot. They'd get pretty angry. Do it to an elephant. They don't. This isn't the best example, though, since people might argue that it's like dogs showing teeth, so instead of *just* sticking to this example I'll give another *better* one...

Give somebody "the finger." Now do it to an elephant. Now do it to somebody who has no idea what it means. Why is this a good example? In some other sign-languages, the thumbs-up and the o-kay signs are insulting! I wish I could remember that article, though. Anyways, what I'm trying to illistrate is the ability of humans to create\use\retain these symbols.

Humans are truely unique, but I have yet to see anything that makes us completely superior. As far as I'm concerned, that's a place for the ants.
User avatar
Gigafrost
Frost Weapon
Frost Weapon
 
Posts: 4900
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 5:09 pm
Location: Here

Postby Evlfrost » Fri Jan 17, 2003 7:08 pm

There are only three speices in the world that can recognize themselves i.e. if you take a marker and draw a line on a humans forehead when they look into a mirror theyre going to notice the line. If you do that to a dolphin or a gorrila they are going to notice it to. All others animals will not recognize that there is something wrong with their forehead.
Evljsh: You're young and thus illegal!
xXOkashiiSuruXx: -falls over-

Image
User avatar
Evlfrost
Frost Druid
Frost Druid
 
Posts: 6692
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:41 pm
Location: Suburbia

Postby TerraFrost » Fri Jan 17, 2003 9:59 pm

there is no question that we are in some ways, superior to every other animal on this planet. that's not to say, however, that animals are not sentient. animals could well be sentient, however, they might just have the intellegence of mentally retarded people, or worse.

There are only three speices in the world that can recognize themselves i.e. if you take a marker and draw a line on a humans forehead when they look into a mirror theyre going to notice the line. If you do that to a dolphin or a gorrila they are going to notice it to. All others animals will not recognize that there is something wrong with their forehead.


and how exactly do you know if someone recognizeses that there is something wrong with their forehead? i mean, if an elephaunt were to look into a mirror, and see a big hole in his head, what is he supposed to do? fix it? look at it some more? lay down, and die? what exactly are you supposed to do to proove you recognize yourself in a mirror?

further, other animals just may not think like we do - that does not mean they aren't self-aware. for example, humans see what is known as a virtual image in a mirror. we extrapolate light rays converging to a central point, which forms a reflection... but can animals extrapolate those light rays? how would we know whether or not they could? is the inability to extrapolate lines enough, in and of itself, to say that something isn't self-aware? i sure don't think so.
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby OmegaFrost » Fri Jan 17, 2003 11:25 pm

*reads thread and shakes his head in dipaire*

Ok heres the thing with hunting we are predators thsoe who dont like hunting are errosrs ( I'm am one of those errors so I am not complaining) Also I'd like to point out that the reason we walk our dogs and play fetch with them is to release the tension they gain from not hunting like they should ( my mom used to keep chikens and the dogs would kill them all the time but not eat them so theres an example of other animals killing for sport :lila: ). Aso for self awarness its been proven that all the apes, and some of the primates are more than just self aware thay can even feel compasion towards other creatures and know how they are feeling. And about what Giga said about the heart rate controll, a widley excepted theorie is that humans went through a stage of something similare to a deal or hippo which explains the majority of our features. Finaly about humans being more evolved the fact is that other creature are just as or more evolved than us. Infact our evolution has come to a stand still due to modern medicine. :lila: Ok i'm done! :D
Image

Daleks from another dimension!

"Mark... Mark... Mark... there are not ninjas following you around acting like their going to kill you... Just one! His name is Roger and hes really pissed!"
User avatar
OmegaFrost
Frost Scientist
Frost Scientist
 
Posts: 1848
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:53 am
Location: My own World

Postby TerraFrost » Sat Jan 18, 2003 1:05 am

Ok heres the thing with hunting we are predators thsoe who dont like hunting are errosrs ( I'm am one of those errors so I am not complaining) Also I'd like to point out that the reason we walk our dogs and play fetch with them is to release the tension they gain from not hunting like they should ( my mom used to keep chikens and the dogs would kill them all the time but not eat them so theres an example of other animals killing for sport ).


as i said in the other thread, that is a good point :)
although, pets are domesticated animals, so i'm not sure pets even count domestication could be seen as almost a pervision of nature. we're corrupting animals with our own moral values, heh. i mean, it isn't natural for a horse, for example, to let people ride it - so why should we expect other natural qualities from them?

Finaly about humans being more evolved the fact is that other creature are just as or more evolved than us. Infact our evolution has come to a stand still due to modern medicine.


the term evolved is usually used synomiously with the term advanced. humans are more advaned than any other creature out there. now granted, humans may have evolved less, as of late, due to medicine, etc, but that doesn't mean humans are less advanced than primates :lila:

further, modern medicine, i would argue, is actually increasing evolutionary changes. people who would not normally survivie now are surviving. there genetic flaws are being incorporated into society. so if anything, society is probably deevolving, which is still evolution :lila:

that, and evolution occurs due to natural selection. a part of natural selection is sexual selection - if society decides that people with fifteen fingers are hot, there will be more people with the genes to make people with fifteen fingers :lila:
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby OmegaFrost » Sat Jan 18, 2003 3:31 am

Ok thats true but I never said thet apes were more advanced than us Im just saying they are better suited to there environment we arent because we have to change it. :lila: And one last thing I'd like to point out is that we are actually jumpatarting evolution by chenging the environment however some of that evolution and natural selection is going too fast and thats where treehuggers come into play.
Image

Daleks from another dimension!

"Mark... Mark... Mark... there are not ninjas following you around acting like their going to kill you... Just one! His name is Roger and hes really pissed!"
User avatar
OmegaFrost
Frost Scientist
Frost Scientist
 
Posts: 1848
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 3:53 am
Location: My own World

Previous

Return to Twilight Zone

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron