Humans and Animals

Trippy discussions of moral issues, conspiracy theories, the paranormal and other otherworldly phenomenon.

Moderator: Dracofrost

Humans and Animals

Postby Evlfrost » Tue Jan 14, 2003 7:16 pm

This is a discussion about wether or not humans have the right to kill animals. I belive we do. We are more evoled than them. They are not self aware. So why is it wrong for us to kill them?
Evljsh: You're young and thus illegal!
xXOkashiiSuruXx: -falls over-

Image
User avatar
Evlfrost
Frost Druid
Frost Druid
 
Posts: 6692
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:41 pm
Location: Suburbia

Postby TerraFrost » Tue Jan 14, 2003 10:53 pm

I personally don't have any problems killing animals. Although I do not know if they are self aware or not... i don't believe any of the tests science has concoted are very fool proof at all.
further, i don't think us being more evolved than them is a *good* reason to kill them, persay. iirc, there's a theory that people grow in the womb as they evolved in nature. so saying its ok to kill an animal because it's less evolved would be like saying its ok to kill an infant, which is a hotly disputed factor.
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Nyufrost » Tue Jan 14, 2003 11:28 pm

Yeah ... I would have to agree with that. You have no idea if animals have any self-awareness but I would say they do. Haven't you ever had a pet dog or cat? I don't mean a junkyard dog that stays outside all the time but a real pet one that lives indoors and interacts with people. I'd say they're pretty darned smart and killing a dog or cat just to kill one is just as evil as killing a person.

Hunting for sport is a big pet peeve of mine. I think there is something mentally wrong with people who get a charge out of killing a deer or whatever just for the pleasure of seeing it die. I mean, what the heck? :o

If you want to make it a sport, then fight the animal with your bare hands and see which species is more likely to survive!

Killing for food is a different matter. I don't see anything bad about that. Also, making furs and leather goods from the animals that are killed for food is also acceptable to me because it makes good use of the entire animal and is not just senselessly killing it for it's fur or just for fun.
<BR><center> "Snowflakes are one of nature's most fragile things, but just look <br> what they can do when they stick together.." ... Vesta M. Kelly</center>
User avatar
Nyufrost
Frost Advisor
Frost Advisor
 
Posts: 5534
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:03 am
Location: Out There

Postby Rend » Wed Jan 15, 2003 12:05 am

I don't believe that hunting is a good thing unless you eat your kill.

Otherwise, my evidence is this:

Deer have the organs to eat plants.
Lions have the organs to eat animals.

We have the organs to eat both.

This means: We get a salad with our steak. It's been clinically proven to be unhealthy not to eat a healthy diet of both plant and animal.
"Bubba, this is not football or war."
~Soccer coach to 'Bubba', a football player in need of a sport.

Viva la AVATAR OF TWO!
User avatar
Rend
Townfolk
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 4:46 pm

Postby BluKing » Wed Jan 15, 2003 3:39 pm

Well we've relied on eating meet far before we became bleeding hearts... but i personally think animals are superior than humans...for the reason that they truely are innocent and they have a purpose. They maintain an equalibriam with the world.

We, however, do not...we consume everything, we kill each other, we destroy the world we live in. How exactly are we better? Because we can convince ourselves we are better?
User avatar
BluKing
Townfolk
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:12 am

Postby Evlfrost » Wed Jan 15, 2003 6:58 pm

Nyufrost wrote:Hunting for sport is a big pet peeve of mine. I think there is something mentally wrong with people who get a charge out of killing a deer or whatever just for the pleasure of seeing it die. I mean, what the heck? :o .



Humans are naturly predators. It is natural for us to take pleasure in hunting. Not only that but since we are unable to coexist with other predators(for saftey reasons). It is a must for us to hunt to mantain equalibrium as Bluking put it.
Evljsh: You're young and thus illegal!
xXOkashiiSuruXx: -falls over-

Image
User avatar
Evlfrost
Frost Druid
Frost Druid
 
Posts: 6692
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:41 pm
Location: Suburbia

Postby Nyufrost » Wed Jan 15, 2003 7:48 pm

Uh ... lions are natural predators also. They hunt and kill TO EAT not for any perverse pleasure in watching something die. Getting your jollies out of killing is not called being a predator!

Of course, you could say that Jeffrey Dahmer was a predator, no? He killed and ate young boys. They were not as evolved as he was but does that mean they deserved to die? And why did Jeffrey get arrested and sent to prison?

There are very few people in the world who enjoy hunting for sport. I think it should be a punishable offense!
<BR><center> "Snowflakes are one of nature's most fragile things, but just look <br> what they can do when they stick together.." ... Vesta M. Kelly</center>
User avatar
Nyufrost
Frost Advisor
Frost Advisor
 
Posts: 5534
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:03 am
Location: Out There

Postby TerraFrost » Wed Jan 15, 2003 9:49 pm

Because we can convince ourselves we are better?


more like because it is important to us that we are better, heh.

and yeah... humans are pretty unique in that the kill for reasons other than necessity. like bluking said, animals only kill what they have to. the animal kingdom never made another species go extinct :lila:

It is a must for us to hunt to mantain equalibrium as Bluking put it.


that's almost exactly the opposite of what bluking said - he was talking about how animals are supperior to us because they mantain an equilibrium, where as we don't :lila:
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Rend » Thu Jan 16, 2003 7:58 pm

The reason we are superior to animals is not because we use tools or because we think we're better, it's because we think- period.

Animals have instincts. Some are even smart enough to know whats going on, but none of them have free will. You may be able to see anomalous behavior from an animal, but nowhere near the free will of a human being.

Thats what we call 'sentient'
"Bubba, this is not football or war."
~Soccer coach to 'Bubba', a football player in need of a sport.

Viva la AVATAR OF TWO!
User avatar
Rend
Townfolk
 
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2002 4:46 pm

Postby Evlfrost » Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:51 pm

Thank you Rend. Well said.
Evljsh: You're young and thus illegal!
xXOkashiiSuruXx: -falls over-

Image
User avatar
Evlfrost
Frost Druid
Frost Druid
 
Posts: 6692
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:41 pm
Location: Suburbia

Postby TerraFrost » Thu Jan 16, 2003 9:58 pm

how do we know that animals don't think? i mean, if they did think, how would they manifest their thinking? many animals don't have hands with which to build / write anything. and anyways, even though some animals may be able to manifest their thinking like we can, but just don't, tha doesn't mean they don't think. i mean, they could still think, but have the intellegince of a mentally retarded person... and i think that mentally retarded people think, hehe.

and anyways, i'm not even convienced that we do have free will. further, i'm not convienced we are sentient. it may just that we have so many more instincts, and such a complexity of instincts than any other animal, that we sorta lose sight of them, and assume we don't have them.
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby BluKing » Fri Jan 17, 2003 12:35 am

of course they can think and they can reason. The thing they can't do is think of things that haven't happened to yet. That's why we've been able to evolve mentally. We can imagine and plan ahead. Animals can't plan past their nessesities. But the ability to think only means we are superior mentally..doesn't mean we are superior
User avatar
BluKing
Townfolk
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:12 am

Postby Nyufrost » Fri Jan 17, 2003 1:09 am

The one big thing that sets man apart from most animals is a working thumb which allows him to accomplish far more that animals with only four toes and a dew claw. However, man's toe have lost their ability to grasp and pick things up as he has evolved. None of that has to do with intelligence.

Free will means the ability to make choices. Animals make choices just like people do so I think it is inaccurate to say they have no free will or abilities to think for themselves.

If you and your dog get lost in the woods for a couple weeks, he is going to chase and eat raw rabbits, racoons or whatever he can catch while you are still saying "eeewwww" at the idea of having to drink dirty water.
<BR><center> "Snowflakes are one of nature's most fragile things, but just look <br> what they can do when they stick together.." ... Vesta M. Kelly</center>
User avatar
Nyufrost
Frost Advisor
Frost Advisor
 
Posts: 5534
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 7:03 am
Location: Out There

Postby BluKing » Fri Jan 17, 2003 3:15 am

i'd also like to point out that humans are animals too....we are all from the same place...
User avatar
BluKing
Townfolk
 
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2002 5:12 am

Postby Evlfrost » Fri Jan 17, 2003 4:49 pm

Nyufrost wrote:Uh ... lions are natural predators also. They hunt and kill TO EAT not for any perverse pleasure in watching something die. Getting your jollies out of killing is not called being a predator!
There are very few people in the world who enjoy hunting for sport. I think it should be a punishable offense!



Lions do kill for other reasons than food. All predators do. And that second statement is very false. I know many hunters and they all enjoy for sport. Ask the local game warden or conservation agent. They will both agree that hunting is good for wildlife. Humans have an urge to kill. Why else do you think there are so many viloent video games. The advantage of hunting over video games is that video games teach you to shoot other people. Hunting is a natural way of satistfying that urge. And people eat the game that they kill. Its a waste not to.
Evljsh: You're young and thus illegal!
xXOkashiiSuruXx: -falls over-

Image
User avatar
Evlfrost
Frost Druid
Frost Druid
 
Posts: 6692
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:41 pm
Location: Suburbia

Next

Return to Twilight Zone

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron