Bartering vs Money

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Bartering vs Money

Postby Roadkill » Fri Oct 17, 2003 11:11 pm

Money is a system that we all thrive on. It constitutes a balanced, fair trade of materials throughout the entire country.

But compare it to bartering.

Money lets us easily get those jobs such as management and factory work and such without the hassle of payment.

But bartering gives you a closenit group to work with. Farmers trade in produce for tools, fertilizer, and whatever else they may need. Then the receivers use it to feed its workers. The reciever also trades his product for certain items his employees might desire - to be auctioned off or given to the worker who most deserves it.

Okay, this is really sounding communist, but hey, its a thought.
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Postby tsian » Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:18 am

Actually, what you are proposing has very little to do with communism at all.

It is rather Capitalist, in fact ;)
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Postby Roadkill » Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:39 am

all canadians are commies
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Postby Evlfrost » Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:39 am

all canadians are commies


Why do you say that? :p
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Postby tsian » Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:48 am

Thats actually spam. Communism is generally centered around the idea of Equality of result.

What you are suggesting is more tied into equality of right / equality of opportunity, which more fits in with classical liberalism and, generally speaking, capitalism.

EDIT: Actually, traditionally Canadians have been rather conservative while Americans have been far more liberal. No more is this apparent then by looking through our respective countries Constitutions and Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Bill of Rights).
Last edited by tsian on Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Roadkill » Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:51 am

theoretically thinking - its more of communism in that everyone is getting what he needs more than what he wants. The price is never fixed, it just is how much he wants it and how much the other guy wants his stuff. He isnt going to get as much n the way of what he wants as much as he will in what he needs.
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Postby tsian » Sat Oct 18, 2003 12:52 am

The price is never fixed, it just is how much he wants it and how much the other guy wants his stuff

Thats a market system. Aka Capitalism.

He isnt going to get as much n the way of what he wants as much as he will in what he needs.

That depends entirely on the present market conditions and the skill of the barterer.

theoretically thinking - its more of communism in that everyone is getting what he needs more than what he wants

Communism isn't exactly centered around needs vs wants though.\

(I also edited my last post, in case you missed it)
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Postby Roadkill » Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:04 am

but if you only get what you need, does anyone really profit?
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Postby tsian » Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:09 am

Again, that depends entirely on the skill of the barterer in the system.
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Postby Evlfrost » Sat Oct 18, 2003 1:12 am

Money is a medium of exchange that offers more freedom than bartering. Consider this, say you wanted to buy a new computer, and you have three thousand heads of cabbage to offer. Now lets say the person with the computer doesnt like cabbage, then well you are screwed. Legal tender offers you much more freedom because it is a stanardized medium of exchange.

btw - money is bartering in a way
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Postby TerraFrost » Sat Oct 18, 2003 3:27 am

in addition to what evl said, money offers some other significant advantages over money. consider banking. people put money in banks. the incentive to do so is interest. banks use the money that people put in banks to make loans. consequently, banks don't have all the money that you put in them. in fact, i believe most only have around 3% of the total money. the rest is usually loaned out, or something. banks earn interest off the loans. that interest is used to pay the interest of people who have money in the banks, as well as provide profit to the bank operators, as an incentive to keep it going. the end result of this is pretty much that people rarely end up hoarding money. it's almost a virtualization of money. the money you have in bank accounts is purely virtual. the only money that's real, so to speak, is the money that's spent, and loans, et al, maximize that... stock exchanges are an even more complex such virtualization.

so anyways, you can't have such virtualizations with barter. if someone wants a cabbage for a chair, a virtual cabbage won't do. plus, you can't really lend cabbage, and to deduct interest... blah, heh.

the advantages you described, roadkill, of barter, are actually very reminscent of sometihng i read about the advantages hunter gatherer societies have over huge agricultural based socities such as exist today. hunter gatherer socities don't tend to have specilization and don't tend to get as large as agriculuturel ones. in fact, they are usually very small. but because of that smallness, there is a lot of close nittedness. everyone has a purpose, because everyone needs a purpose. agriculutural socities, in contrast, have specilization and are huge. people can be totally useless, and because of that they tend to have more crime, etc. i read something about this, but i forgot all of what it said, heh :)

EDIT:"money offers some other significant advantages over money" should have that last money replaced by the word "barter" :)
Last edited by TerraFrost on Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby tsian » Sat Oct 18, 2003 4:16 am

You just outlined some of the arguements for capitalism :p
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Postby Exalted Ugu » Thu Oct 23, 2003 5:37 am

One of my fondest goals is to drop at least partially out of the money economy.

My goal is to take up a useful trade (Millwright/Machinist, with A or B welding ticket and a general Mechanics ticket), move to a somewhat rural community and open up a general repair shop. Since i will be living in a rather rural community, much of my work will end up being done for farmers or ranchers who are generally cash-poor, but food-rich. An offer to trade, for example, an hour of welding for a hundred pounds of edibles would benefit both participants far more than the mercantilist alternative.

The prices paid to farmers for their crops are dismal at best, and a month's worth of food for a single family (mine) would net them less money than an hour of skilled machine work would cost them (from $50 - $300 CDN, depending on the nature of the work).

Service-for-service barter is also quite possible, an example would be my grandmother, who did a years worth of accounting for a plumber in her town in exchange for him laying the pipe in the extention they had built on their house. This sort of thing is not uncommon at all, and certainly doesn't hurt anyone (no-one would do it if what they were getting wasn't worth what they had to do).

I think that barter is a useful adjunct to mercantilism, but probably shouldn't replace it. Some things have a value so high that the goods needed to barter for them would cost more to store and transport than their value (real estate comes to mind).

The only real opposition to barter, i think, comes from those with no useful skills, and no willingness to learn.

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Postby Roadkill » Fri Oct 24, 2003 10:16 pm

another point of view arguing against money. Money piles up. It offers flexibility, but it just keeps piling up. It offers the competitive and succesful a little flexibility, but then people keep pressuring you to give it to them or some charity, who perhaps dont need or deserve it. The Wieght Watchers fund may like it, but its not like you really care about it.

Greed is given a number price, and it isnt based on how good a job you do or anything. It also promotes laziness, which is probably the only way in which it counters itself.

SO you can be hard working and succesful, but the money just keeps piling up, but you still want to use your craft and keep up with life. But the lazy want your money. Ai yi yi.
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Postby TerraFrost » Sat Oct 25, 2003 12:21 am

Greed is given a number price, and it isnt based on how good a job you do or anything. It also promotes laziness, which is probably the only way in which it counters itself.


how, unless you recieved your fortune from some sort of inheritance, does greed promote laziness? do you think bill gates was being lazy when he turned microsoft into a monopoly? do you think michael dell was being lazy when he turned his home business into a fortune 500 company?

now, i'm not saying that the richest people are the *hardest* working people - they may be, or they may not be, i don't know, but i do consider most people who made their own fortunes to be atleast pretty hard working. atleast more so than most people. something else that they are is also lucky, but... that doesn't mean that they aren't hard working, either.
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