The Death Penalty

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The Death Penalty

Postby lorien1 » Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:07 am

:MIB Is it a deterent? are you in favour of it? should it only apply to certain
cases? Colin.<*>.
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Postby Nyufrost » Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:32 am

Is it a deterent? Well ... I am sure the thought of the death penalty, just as the thought of prison, keeps a lot of would-be criminals in check. Unfortunately, I think some see it as a cat and mouse game and feel like they aren't going to get caught because they are too smart for the police. Good examples of this type were Ted Bundy and the Zodiac Killer. The Zodiac did outwit the police and was never captured despite killing a good number of people.

Are you in favor of it? Yes and no which goes with the final part of your post ... I think it should apply only in certain cases. There are different reasons why murders occur. Some are done in the heat of the moment ... a couple gets in a heated domestic argument and one winds up smashing the other over the head with something or shoving them and causing them to hit their head and die. Well, I think the remorse would be genuine and instant in most of those cases and would not warrant the death penalty.

Now, if something like that happened and the partner who killed the other went to great lengths to cover up the crime and pretend they did not do it, I'm still not sure if they should.

However, some people are just plain mean and those are the ones who I think will not benefit from any type of rehabilitation, prison time, counseling or what have you. People like John Lee Malvo who brag about what they did and are proud of their murders as if they are great accomplishments. To me, someone like that does not deserve having thousands of dollars a year spent on them for life in prison.

I forget how much it costs to house one inmate for a year but it is more than many law abiding, working people make annually.
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Postby TerraFrost » Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:34 pm

personally, i believe that a lifetime in prison is probably worse than being condemned to death.

also, i think that, up to a point, it serves no point. for example... consider the son of sam... after you've committed enough murders, such that you can be reasonably assured of death, what reason do you have not to committ more murders? what are they going to do - kill you multiple times?
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Postby Roadkill » Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:55 pm

it saves tax money, it removes the pest quickly and efficiently. Why would he assume he's gunna be caught? And if he serves a lifetime in prison, its just draining tax money and he's gonna try to entertain himself in jail just as he did in life. If he's not satisfy, he'll self serve his death penalty.

Would you lock a rat up for eternity just because it stole your crumbs and ruined your walls? What about the snake that bit your friend?
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Postby Nyufrost » Thu Aug 28, 2003 3:10 am

Yeah, I find it rather annoying and hypocritical that if your dog mauls someone who has heckled it that the dog gets put to death and you can get sent to prison but if your kid goes wild and bites someone repeatedly, the kid doesn't get put to sleep and you won't get sent to prison. If anything, the person being bitten will get in legal trouble for smacking the kid to get him to stop biting ... makes no sense. :\

Anyways, I found the cost for housing one inmate for one year ...
The cost of housing, feeding and caring for a prison inmate is roughly $20,000 per year, about $40 billion nationwide, according to The Sentencing Project, a nonprofit organization.
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/944799.asp?0cv=cb20
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Postby lorien1 » Thu Aug 28, 2003 7:02 pm

Hi.Over the last number of years,twelve people who would have been put to death were cleared of the crimes they were charged with!! There have been miscarrages of justice in the cases of the Birmingham bombers,who,when sentinced, the judge told them he wished the deatrh penalty was in force.He
branded them as evil men,who deserved to hang!!! Fifteen years they spent in
prison,where one of them died.That is one case as an example,there were others.The Birmingham bombers being high profile,as they were charged with
a bombing of a pub in Birminghan,and being members of the I.R.A.There is
also two prisoners in my home city Glasgow,who will be released after 18 years in prison, who were found guilty of the murders of a whole family.They would also have hanged,for a crime they did not comit.Colin.<*>.
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Postby Roadkill » Thu Aug 28, 2003 10:46 pm

that is the unfortunate flaw of the base of our system. Not a flaw with the penalty, but a flaw in judgement. Dont blame death for poor judging or sentencing.

A person charged often will not be missed. ANd remember, that those people could just have likely have been guilty when they went free as they could have been not guilty when charged guilty. When they sit in jail for a decade before being brought back into the world, how bad out are they? what about psychological effects, always having everything systematic and free?

Death row patients are treated better than regulars -- so the cost will probably be upped as much as 50%, perhaps more.
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:27 am

that is the unfortunate flaw of the base of our system. Not a flaw with the penalty, but a flaw in judgement. Dont blame death for poor judging or sentencing.


how can we not blame death on judgement, poor or otherwise? people are executed by the state *because* they are judged to be guilty. if that judgement was incorrect, and they died, then the reason for their death (what we would blame their death on) was falacious.

ANd remember, that those people could just have likely have been guilty when they went free as they could have been not guilty when charged guilty.


so you're saying that because criminals aren't always convicted, it's okay if the ones convicted aren't always criminals? well, i would disagree. the judicial system fails when people don't care about the truth. if making wrong decissions is okay, and the people locked up are just locked up at random, then most criminals will still be walking the street, scott free, committing more crimes. the point of the judicial system is to *prevent* crimes - something that simply wouldn't happen, going by your view of it.

When they sit in jail for a decade before being brought back into the world, how bad out are they? what about psychological effects, always having everything systematic and free?


what about the psychological effects? are you saying that people are better off for being in jail? i mean, systematic really doesn't conote good or bad, in my book, but free... free's always good. so are you saying that those who are imprisoned are actually better off than those who are not?
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Postby Nyufrost » Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:31 am

TerraFrost wrote:so are you saying that those who are imprisoned are actually better off than those who are not?
It seems to me that he was comparing the housing costs for death row inmates with regular inmates by saying that the death row ones receive better care than the others therefore he thinks the cost of keeping them on death row (as opposed to executing them) would be 50% higher than the figure I quoted.
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Aug 29, 2003 3:50 am

that would be his last sentance that did that. his last sentance isn't the one i addressed in my post ;)
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Postby lorien1 » Fri Aug 29, 2003 1:31 pm

O.o Hi There.The people that have been freed,would have been dead if capital punishment was on the table.Things over here work ALOT quicker than the States for instance,you can be put to death in a matter of months after trial.Trying to free prisoners that are still in custody,is much easier than
trying to clear their name when they are dead!!!! The number of misscarage of justice cases,in my opinion,supports the case of no death penalty.To me,spending the rest of your life in prison,or most of it is a just punishment.I think the death penalty is about revenge,not justice.Colin.<*>.
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Postby Roadkill » Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:14 am

justice is a made up word you know. Its closely related to the word 'revenge', unlike you seem to think.

psychological effects. You know, the shawshank syndrom -- when you get out, life just seems so different from the way it used to be. the world changed while you were rotting.

Their is no flaw in the death penalty. THe death penalty works just the way it is supposed to -- it kills people. It is in the miss sentencing that these 'innocents' get killed. The flaw lies there, not here. The flaw lies in bribable judges and inept lawyers.

and those sentenced to the death penalty usually are not missed, except for perhaps their family. people tend to want to forget the dead, or soon to be dead. The world is perfect, but it certainly isnt fair. Remember again we homosapiens are the ones who came up with the meaning of 'fair'.
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Postby TerraFrost » Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:35 am

justice is a made up word you know. Its closely related to the word 'revenge', unlike you seem to think.


wrong. if justice were closely related to the word "revenge" then everyone should be found guilty, because, after all, all anyone is after is revenge, and you can get revenge on anyone. but not everyone is found guilty. justice serves as a buffer between the crime and the punishment for that crime. it filters out the innocent from the guilty. this is almost in direct contrast to what you seem to think :lila:

psychological effects. You know, the shawshank syndrom -- when you get out, life just seems so different from the way it used to be. the world changed while you were rotting.


yes... the world does go on, even if you aren't a part of it... i'm not sure what the relevance of this is, though, to this discussion...

Their is no flaw in the death penalty. THe death penalty works just the way it is supposed to -- it kills people. It is in the miss sentencing that these 'innocents' get killed. The flaw lies there, not here. The flaw lies in bribable judges and inept lawyers.


actually, the death penalty is supposed to be quick and painless, which may not be the case. there are documented instances of people dying in more time than it should have taken. so, it doesn't work as well as it should, in that regard. of course, whether or not people die when you try to kill them has absolutly no bearing on whether or not the death penality should be kept - on whether or not people should die for crimes they have supposedly committed.

and those sentenced to the death penalty usually are not missed, except for perhaps their family. people tend to want to forget the dead, or soon to be dead.


just because someone may not be missed doesn't mean the death penality is valid. it doesn't mean we should throw out the question of innocent or guilty, and kill people at random. i would also disagree with you about people wanting to forget the dead. they don't. if people *really* wanted to forget the dead, old men would get wives the day after their old wives died, but they don't. it takes them years too. what people do do, overtime, is learn to live with their loss. they don't forget about it, as you seem to imply. and, of course, just because people can live with their loss doesn't mean that they should experience loss.

Remember again we homosapiens are the ones who came up with the meaning of 'fair'.


yeah... what does this have to do with anything?
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Postby lorien1 » Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:37 am

Roadkill wrote:justice is a made up word you know. Its closely related to the word 'revenge', unlike you seem to think.

psychological effects. You know, the shawshank syndrom -- when you get out, life just seems so different from the way it used to be. the world changed while you were rotting.

Their is no flaw in the death penalty. THe death penalty works just the way it is supposed to -- it kills people. It is in the miss sentencing that these 'innocents' get killed. The flaw lies there, not here. The flaw lies in bribable judges and inept lawyers.

and those sentenced to the death penalty usually are not missed, except for perhaps their family. people tend to want to forget the dead, or soon to be dead. The world is perfect, but it certainly isnt fair. Remember again we homosapiens are the ones who came up with the meaning of 'fair'.




:poke I think you are missing the whole point of the discussion!! The system is flawed,simply becuase humans make mistakes.Thus killing inoccent people would,and has happened."If you are going to do the crime,you gotta do the time" criminals are punished in accordance to what crime they commit,or are alledged to commit.You can't say oops sorry,we shouldn't have put that guy to death he's innocent!!!! No system of "justice" will be perfect,because humans are not perfect,if the system can kill innocent people,we SHOULD not have a death penalty.Colin.<*>.
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Postby Nyufrost » Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:24 pm

That's one way to look at it.

What have you to say about my comments on people like John Lee Malvo and other serial killers? What is the justification for keeping them alive at a cost of $20k+ per year for a lifetime? They have been proven "worthless to society" many times over with each new victim they killed. What really sucks is that the victim's family members are generally a part of the tax paying public that funds care for the person who murdered their loved one.

Why should someone like John Lee Malvo --who has not only confessed but bragged-- be treated to an expensive trial, a free lawyer and then get free food and medical care for life for committing a string of callous crimes? That seems more like a reward than a punishment.

Heck, law abiding homeless people deserve free food and free medical care a lot more than a proven serial killer does, IMO.
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