Is God a Tapeworm?

[Gigafrost]

Well, if God can do anything then it's a real jerk for allowing suffering to happen.

Oh wait, that's supposed to be because of free will, isn't it? Well then, God can't do anything, then, because God can't deal with free will, so we've got something more powerful than God, then?

Or maybe they're supposed to be soul-building evils? soul-building suffering? Well, there's suffering that destroys souls that occurs all too often. In addition, if God could *really* do anything then it would be quite easy to make it where our souls are built without suffering.

So, taking both those into account, if we assume that God can really do anything then God is purposely letting needless suffer happen, which does not make God as good as people would have it be (which contradicts the Christian idea of God), or it makes God incredibly stupid or ignorant (which also contradicts).

[Nyufrost]

Gee ... let's see ... if you had no free will then you would just be a robot-like machine. And, with your free will, you choose whether to kill people; bear a grudge against people forever for unintentional wrongs; break traffic laws; be cruel to animals or whatever.

So, let's imagine life without suffering ....

If people did not grieve for the dead then it wouldn't make any difference whether they were killed or not because no one would give a crap. This would likely lead to a great increase in the murder rate.

If people bear grudges against someone who has unintentionally wronged them, then they are willfully causing suffering to that person because they want to inflict pain to make themselves feel better for being hurt. Well, without suffering, that form of cruel punishment would have no effect.

Same goes for most other things ... suffering by the victim or the guity party suffering from feelings of guilt.

Society would be basically lawless without such feelings, IMO.

Now, suffering associated with physical pain of terrible diseases like cancer, well I am not really sure the purpose of that. Perhaps it is sort of a final test to see if people can endure it or if they kill themself.

[Gigafrost]

Nyufrost, I did *NOT* say the feeling should be gone. I said *suffering*...and your one example isn't a very good counter-example because in the society you said, murder means nothing to the people so for them it is not a problem for them to kill eachother. In our world, murder is suffering and *that* is the reason we don't like it. If everybody enjoyed being murdered then it wouldn't really be a problem would it? Of course, many of the reasons people are driven to murder is because they are psychopathic or angry, and those are caused by suffering, which would mean that in a world without suffering feelings people wouldn't be driven to murder because of their feelings. I'd say that either way, there would be nothing morally wrong with that society by their standards.

So, to ellaborate, you confused "suffering emotions" with "suffering"...I mean that if God were truly able to do anything then God would be able to, say, stop a rape from happening. To stop a wife-beating before it occurs. If God cannot do this then it is false to say that God can do anything.

Now, you're saying that having no free-will would make us robot-like machines. It seems like you're trying to say that free-will means that we're free to choose whenever we want. Well, we are not. Our wills are not free...they are the result of the environment we grew up in. If, for example, you had been born in Australia then you would not only speak a different accent but you would also think differently. If I had been born in an Eskimo town in Alaska I would not be persuing an interest in computers and games as I would be focusing on learning to live there, instead.

Well, what I'm trying to say is that people's minds do have rules they follow. They are restrained. We do not have totally free will. If we did, you'd find it much easier to learn math, as your mind wouldn't follow the "certain minds tend to speciallize in certain things" rule.

In addition, let's say that people have free will. If God, who knows everything, does not known what we're going to do, then that God does not know everything. If God, who can do anything, cannot control the actions of an individual, then that God cannot do everything.

Well, Christians say that God chooses not to control, but God would know that not controlling would cause suffering (because God knows everything) and so God is actually allowing suffering to happen, which means God intends to have people suffer. Arguing that God can't do anything about soul-building or free-will is a load of crap. God can do anything. God could make it where souls are built by something other than suffering. God could make it where free-willed people can't hurt eachother. God doesn't, though, so either God doesn't exist or God is not all-good.

[TerraFrost]

In addition, let's say that people have free will. If God, who knows everything, does not known what we're going to do, then that God does not know everything. If God, who can do anything, cannot control the actions of an individual, then that God cannot do everything.

that aspect of Godhood is also kinda... paradoxical... if we have freewill, then we can do whatever we want. if God knows everything, then he knows what we are going to do before we do it. God has known what everyone would do since the creation of the universe, and... if our future has been predetermined for us in this way, then... that's not freewill. that's fate. so i guess that would be a proof by contradiction that if god exists so to does fate (ie. not freewill).

of course, the flip side is that god, being all powerful, could well have ascended past this paradox, thusly, we could very well somehow have freewill despite gods existence...

god probably has the power to defy logical reasoning, heh.

[Gigafrost]

I'm not so sure about that. If God is above logical reasoning then God is also above any other ideas we have. If we say God has the property of being all-powerful, all-knowing, or all-benevolent then God has properties that are subject to logic. So, we can definately say that God cannot have all of these properties because it's the properties themselves that are subject to logical laws.

If any problem exists, then, it's that people cannot attach such properties to God, in which case we can't know God and worshipping God would *not* be worshipping the Christian God that's omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent. So, even if God was above logical reasoning, that still means that the Christian God's definition is paradoxical.

If God is above logical reasoning then it's not the Christian God.

[TerraFrost]

I'm not so sure about that. If God is above logical reasoning then God is also above any other ideas we have. If we say God has the property of being all-powerful, all-knowing, or all-benevolent then God has properties that are subject to logic. So, we can definately say that God cannot have all of these properties because it's the properties themselves that are subject to logical laws.

why are those properties subject to logic? i mean, it seems to me as if some apostle said it, and it was so. logic wasn't used to make them (i don't think) and thusly, they are as assertions. if you make a bunch of assertions, that doesn't qualify as logic, i don't think. logic is what happens when you use the rules of logic to come to a conclusion based on your initial assertions...

[Gigafrost]

And if God has properties that fall within our understanding, such as being all-powerful and such, then those terms most definately are affected by logic. In order for God to be above reasoning and logic God would have to be above our understanding, but if we say that God is all-powerful, all-knowning, and all-good then we're also saying that God is within our understanding.

[TerraFrost]

the thing is... i'm not really sure that we understand or can understand "all-powerful", "all-good" or "all-knowing", though...

i think they're abstract concepts, like emotions - for example, we may sorta know what love is, but until we can make a computer program love, hate, be afraid, be happy, or whatever, our knowledge of those things barely scratches the surface...

[Gigafrost]

That may be, but ask any die-hard Christian and their definition of God is pretty strict. God can't be anything other than what they think it is, which means that we can simply prove what they think is wrong.

[WRB]

God will never be within our understanding, no matter what. Also, mebe god has a plan for suffering. Mebe he is hoping that through our own free will, we will learn to live in peace. But to get there, we have to experiance suffering soas to see its harmful effects in order to know that it must stop, but we have yet to see the full effects of suffering, so it continues.

Also, while we have the ability to choose our own lives, god can see what we will do, and, in some theories, time is set and the choices you make cannot be changed. That means that god can see what we do and we are under "Fate," but its our fate, meaning that we have made it with our chioces. And whos to say that the future doesnt change? What if every choice we make changes the future alot and god can see into the future as far as the things that dont change. He cant see into the future after a change, because that future has yet to be afected by our present... Is this making sense? Or am I just looping my gibber around ilogical crapola?

[TerraFrost]

Also, while we have the ability to choose our own lives, god can see what we will do, and, in some theories, time is set and the choices you make cannot be changed. That means that god can see what we do and we are under "Fate," but its our fate, meaning that we have made it with our chioces.

if our fate was predetermined before we were born, i don't see what our choices would have to do with it - i mean, it isn't as if we would have a lot of realistic alternative choices, 'cause if we did, then our fate wouldn't be predetermined

And whos to say that the future doesnt change? What if every choice we make changes the future alot and god can see into the future as far as the things that dont change. He cant see into the future after a change, because that future has yet to be afected by our present... Is this making sense? Or am I just looping my gibber around ilogical crapola?

if i'm understanding you correctly, then the problem to this argument would be that if god didn't know the futures for things that could change, then god wouldn't be all powerful / all knowledgable.

[WRB]

No, god cant see whats not there. The future isnt, if that makes sinse.

[Gigafrost]

But then God isn't all-knowing. I'm not saying he *sees* the future, I'm saying he *knows* it. In addition, you also can't prove that the future isn't already there. If God is all-seeing then God could easily see the future, strict-ruled or random, as God would know what the results of randomness would be, so either way God would know the future and there's every indication that God will also be able to see the future.

Unless you'd like to actually prove that your speculations about the future are more than just wishful thinking.

On a second thought, if God can't see the future then God really isn't all-seeing...God's vision can only see past and present. So, technically your idea does contradict the Christian idea of God as well.

[Roadkill]

holy crap giga, i did not know such unrelenting complicated thinking could go on so long.

i dont think this will change anyones ideas, so im probly not going to worry about this as much as i am about solving the problem of flat burnt cookies.

i recomend yall do the same. i am not a christian, but nor will i attempt to insult or assualt there simple rigid-minded simply-unchanging-no-matter what-the-reality beleif about god. Try to define him, then like all porblems, generate counterexamples.

He cant be a good god that controls everything, otherwise he would not allow "evil" things to happen (except to teach, perhaps?). If he was an all good god, then there has to be a counter for him, and Satan isnt supposed to be a god.

Envisioning him as a nuetral god allowing both evil and good into the world, produces the natural balance when you try to mix everything together under the power of one god.

Here's another interesting thought -- Jesus, we all here stories of him doing good stuff, but ever stop and wonder what went on behind the curtains? Or if he ever did anything remotely bad? every human does, but you never here of him doing that. Or perhaps something more radical, that i wont propose just yet.

also, um giga, is there any sort of logical thought that leads directly to the assumption that good has to be balanced by evil.

Or better yet, is there any logical definition of good and evil?

[WRB]

In addition, you also can't prove that the future isn't already there

You cant prove there is. And besides, my point was that there wasnt a future past our choices. Like, in a year, I will make a big choice(hypotheticly). After that, the future isnt. Like, its not there. And seeing as my point is improvible, and the couter point isnt provible, its a moot point. Lets all just become cultists and forget this giant mess. How bout the the cult of the sometimes seeing fish?