Libertarians

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Libertarians

Postby Tetraforce » Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:26 am

I am a Libertarian. Does anyone know what a Libertarian is? The word means approximately "believer in liberty". Libertarians believe in individual conscience and individual choice, and reject the use of force or fraud to compel others except in response to force or fraud. (This latter is called the "Non-Coercion Principle" and is the one thing all libertarians agree on.)

What do they do?

Help individuals take more control over their own lives. Take the state (and other self-appointed representatives of "society") out of private decisions. Abolish both halves of the welfare/warfare bureaucracy (privatizing real services) and liberate the 7/8ths of our wealth that's now soaked up by the costs of a bloated and ineffective government, to make us all richer and freer. Oppose tyranny everywhere, whether it's the obvious variety driven by greed and power-lust or the subtler, well-intentioned kinds that coerce people "for their own good" but against their wills.

I can tell you how to solve these problems, like the income tax.. heck, most all tax problems.

Vote Libertarian.
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Apr 11, 2003 3:49 pm

I know a number of libertarians... they say it's the best alternative to a two party system... and they're probably right - they're the "independant" party to get their name on the ballot as often as they do, iirc...
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Postby Nyufrost » Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:05 pm

Independent and Libertarian are two different things and I think *every* party would tell you that they are the best. ;)

Personally, I think everyone should exercise their brains and vote for whichever candidate seems best qualified and seems to have the same goals and principals you admire, regardless of which party they are in.

I think people who vote based strictly on party lines are narrowminded and sheeplike.
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Postby Evlfrost » Fri Apr 11, 2003 6:11 pm

Well I strongly agree with libertarians position on limiting government. However sometimes they tend to be a lot more liberal than I would like.
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Postby Tetraforce » Fri Apr 11, 2003 7:11 pm

Once upon a time (in the 1800s), "liberal" and "libertarian" meant the same thing; "liberals" were individualist, distrustful of state power, pro-free- market, and opposed to the entrenched privilege of the feudal and mercantilist system. After 1870, the "liberals" were gradually seduced (primarily by the Fabian socialists) into believing that the state could and should be used to guarantee "social justice". They largely forgot about individual freedom, especially economic freedom, and nowadays spend most of their time justifying higher taxes, bigger government, and more regulation. Libertarians call this socialism without the brand label and want no part of it.
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Apr 11, 2003 8:18 pm

Independent and Libertarian are two different things and I think *every* party would tell you that they are the best.


well... iirc, independent is an actual party, so that's why i put in in quotes :lila:

perhapes i should have said third party, hehe... although i dunno... that sounds sorta weird... "they're the best third party out there"? well... i think it'd sound weird, hehe.

and that's certainly a good point about best... i should have said most viable alternative :)

Personally, I think everyone should exercise their brains and vote for whichever candidate seems best qualified and seems to have the same goals and principals you admire, regardless of which party they are in.


i think everyone *should*, too, but... that doesn't necessarily mean they can. information about tincy tiny parties is just not really going to be as... easy to obtain as it is for bigger parties... further, smaller parties might not even be able to get their name on their ballot, so... someone would actually have to know their name off hand. if you're going to do that, then you might as well learn the position of every single insignificant candidate out there, but... that's not really practical...

I think people who vote based strictly on party lines are narrowminded and sheeplike.


not that i'm a political expert, but... i would think that people running for political parties have to represent that parties stance. if they differ from the parties stance, they are liable to be kicked out of that party, not recieve that parties funding, or whatever. so... based on that, it seems like the candidate *is* for all essential purposes the manefistation of the party... and in that case, you *can* choose one party over another, independant of their candidates, and imho, not be a sheep.
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Postby Tetraforce » Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:30 pm

That is true Terra. They all have the same goals and veiws. The Libertarians are the only one who will fight to give what they promise and what they and everybody wants. As far as all the Libertarians suporters go...

About 3/4 Libertarians are "minarchists" who favor stripping government of most of its accumulated power to meddle, leaving only the police and courts for law enforcement and a sharply reduced military for national defense (nowadays some might also leave special powers for environmental enforcement).

The other 1/4 are anarchists who believe that "limited government" is a delusion and the free market can provide better law, order, and security than any government monopoly.

Different ends but they share feelings on important topics the same. Also, current libertarian political candidates recognize that you can't demolish a government as large as ours overnight, and that great care must be taken in dismantling it carefully. For example, libertarians believe in open borders, but unrestricted immigration now would attract in a huge mass of welfare clients, so most libertarians would start by abolishing welfare programs before opening the borders. Libertarians don't believe in tax-funded education, but most favor the current "parental choice" laws and voucher systems as a step in the right direction.

Progress in freedom and prosperity is made in steps. The Magna Carta, which for the first time put limits on a monarchy, was a great step forward in human rights. The parliamentary system was another great step. The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, which affirmed that even a democratically-elected government couldn't take away certain inalienable rights of individuals, was probably the single most important advance so far. But the journey isn't over.
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Postby TerraFrost » Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:11 am

thanks for the overview! that was really informative! :)

Progress in freedom and prosperity is made in steps. The Magna Carta, which for the first time put limits on a monarchy, was a great step forward in human rights. The parliamentary system was another great step. The U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, which affirmed that even a democratically-elected government couldn't take away certain inalienable rights of individuals, was probably the single most important advance so far. But the journey isn't over.


with things like the patriot act, and copyright / corporate abuses, it seems like we're actually back peddling, heh.

would the reduction of government, as proposed by libertarians fix that? afaik, they plan on reducing what FDR built up first... social security, well fair, etc. that's probably the single most thing that made the government as big as it is - it made government spending go from a few million a year to billions and trillians...
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Postby Tetraforce » Sat Apr 12, 2003 3:04 am

Well by eliminating the things like social security and welfare that simulated the growth in the first place, the opposite will deminish the need for 5 economic idiots to suport their systems that failed. Some libertarians believe we are headed for technological and economic changes so shattering that no statist ideology can possibly survive them (in particular, most of the nanotechnology "underground" is hard-core libertarian).

The welfare laws, tax laws, minimum wage laws, and other regulations accually discourages and often prevent these people from becoming self-supporting citizens. This is what the American people have received for the trillions of their dollars that the politicians have wasted on their failed welfare schemes.

Democratic politicians have various plans to reform welfare, even though every previous welfare reform has increased the cost and the number of people on welfare.

Republican politicians voted to send federal welfare money to the states, tied up in a multitude of strings that will make government welfare programs even bigger and more wasteful than before.

Libertarian politicians know welfare doesn't work. It has consigned millions of Americans to a life of dependency and despair, and it has cost us trillions of dollars. It has created homelessness and malnutrition on a staggering scale. We want to end it completely and immediately and allow local charities, flush with donations from the largest tax cut in American history, to reassume their traditional role of doing what government hand-outs can never accomplish - help people who are down-on-their-luck to become responsible, productive adults.
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Postby TerraFrost » Sat Apr 12, 2003 11:34 pm

The welfare laws, tax laws, minimum wage laws, and other regulations accually discourages and often prevent these people from becoming self-supporting citizens. This is what the American people have received for the trillions of their dollars that the politicians have wasted on their failed welfare schemes.


that's a good point...

my economics teacher gave an example of how it is actually better for a mother to not get a job and go on wellfare than it is for her to actually go out and get a job... she gets more money, and gets to spend time with her kid, raising it, etc...

also, as biased as i think the movie bowling for columbine was, i think it did give a good example of wellfare abused... in their example, spear headed by lockheed martin, poor parents had to take a bus for a 100 mile trip to work at some job for minimum wage. they'd spend more time away from home and at home, and... their kids were living in the most "at risk" neighborhoods in the city...

everything else you said is a good point, too... i just can't add anything, hehe :)
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Postby Tetraforce » Mon Apr 14, 2003 1:03 am

As the level of "anti-poverty" spending in this country has risen, so has poverty. Government bureaucracies have no incentive to lift people out of dependency and every incentive to keep them in it; after all, more poverty means a bigger budget and more power for the bureaucrats. Libertarians want to break this cycle by abolishing all income-transfer programs and allowing people to keep what they earn instead of taxing it away from them. The wealth freed up would go directly to the private sector, creating jobs for the poor, decreasing the demand on private charity, and increasing charitable giving. The results might diminish poverty or they might leave it at today's levels -- but it's hard to see how they could be any less effective than the present wretched system.
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Postby TerraFrost » Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:36 am

hmmm... i can't really add anything else except for... good points :)
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Postby Tetraforce » Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:06 am

Are you going to be a Libertarian supporter then? If your unsure. Ask a question, even if you don't understand how things work. Other politions like to tell people when they try to explain why their last 4 years in office did nothing, is by telling people that they don't know how the system works. You don't have to know the details to notice the fundamental errors which is simple logic to anybody.
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Postby TerraFrost » Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:36 am

well, considering that most of my family and friends have libertarian leanings, i think it's safe to assume that i would too... however... that said, heh... i really don't know the goals of the the republicans or democrates... nor do i know the goals of other significant third parties... like the green party, independant party (i think those are the most well known third parties), and others, which i would need to know in order to make an informed decission...

any insights or insightful links? :)
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Postby Tetraforce » Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:28 am

http://www.Libertarian.org I guess would be a start. They don't go into detail much.
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