Abortion

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Do you aprove of abortion?

Yes
3
43%
No
4
57%
 
Total votes : 7

Abortion

Postby Evlfrost » Wed Mar 05, 2003 8:35 pm

I have to say that I dislike abortion. I belive that a fetus is a human baby and has a right to live. All those pregnat women who say that they have a right to do whatever they want with their bodies havnt factored in that a fetus is not merely an extension of their body but a living human.
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Postby TerraFrost » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:15 pm

the best point i ever heard "for" abortion was that... if fetus's are just as human as you and i, then shouldn't they be counted for tax purposes? they aren't, though. so... whether or not the government is morally right, there *is* a legal presidence *to* allow abortion.

that said, i actually kinda object to the question. people who are "pro-abortion" often say they are "pro-choice" - not "pro-abortion". pro-choice means that they believe that it should be up to the woman to decide. she can decide either way.

so really... imho, "pro-abortion" is a deragatory term used to describe people who are "pro-choice"...
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Postby Evlfrost » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:20 pm

TerraFrost wrote:so really... imho, "pro-abortion" is a deragatory term used to describe people who are "pro-choice"...




I never used the term pro-abortion.
Last edited by Evlfrost on Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby TerraFrost » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:29 pm

I never used the term pro-abortion.


no you didn't, but the possible answers kinda hint at it... if you approve of abortion (ie. answered yes), you are, by definition, pro-abortion.

of course, then again....

if you asked are you for choice, then saying no is kinda misrepresnative, as well...

i'm not even really sure what a good, accurate version of this question would be, so don't take anything i say personally :)
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Postby Gigafrost » Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:17 pm

I don't believe in unlimited abortion...although at earlier stages it does become questionable. I mean, if we're supposed to assume that having an abortion during any part of the pregnancy is completely and 100% immoral then why isn't that applied to all parts of the reproductive cycle? I mean, wouldn't it be immoral to deny another life by refusing to have children?

I dunno...I still can't justify it, but I feel that at a certain stage it definately becomes immoral...I just don't quite know when that is, either...
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Postby Nyufrost » Wed Mar 05, 2003 11:12 pm

I voted no.

However, I think it should be allowable when the pregnancy is the result of a rape. Then again, if a female reports to authorities she is raped, it is required she be taken to the ER for an exam and a routine part of the exam is called a D&C which is basically an on-the-spot preventative measure to ensure the victim does not become pregnant as a result of the rape.

So, therefore, I would maybe question if someone waits a few months and then says they want an abortion because they were raped. I think *some* girls say that because they are afraid their parents will disown them for fooling around and becoming pregnant at a ridiculously young age.

I am opposed to abortion used as birth control. There are too many other options to start with to prevent unwanted pregnancies and it's up to both parties to practice safe sex. The "easiest" method is that the girl take birth control pills but, unfortunately, there are *some* girls who will purposely *forget* to take them while telling the guy they are taking them just in hopes of snagging a husband. :|

I would say that guys just looking for a casual sex relationship should also use condoms just to help prevent accidents because I think a lot of guys demand/insist/threaten the girl to get an abortion which sucks as much as girls who get pregnant on purpose.

I will use my own best friend as an example. She is married now to the guy who had been her bf since they were 14. I think she was just so overexcited to have a bf because she was not pretty and was teased by other kids all the time. So, she also got pregnant the first time at 14 and he insisted she get an abortion and he paid for it.

Actually, he paid for more than one. He would threaten her and so she would do it. Finally, they were living together and she used the "forgotten pill" trick on him because she wanted to get married and he didn't. Well, he demanded she get an abortion and she refused. So, he waited 8-1/2 months to make sure she wasn't going to have a miscarriage and then he married her.

The whole thing sort of annoys me yet enlightens me to some of the bizarre ways people barter another life (the unborn baby) to get what they want. :|
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Postby TerraFrost » Thu Mar 06, 2003 12:00 am

So, therefore, I would maybe question if someone waits a few months and then says they want an abortion because they were raped. I think *some* girls say that because they are afraid their parents will disown them for fooling around and becoming pregnant at a ridiculously young age.


date rape victims *usually* don't advertise that they've been raped. they'll usually keep it bottled up inside, because they feel that they somehow brought this upon themselves. they feel that it was their fault, and not the person who actually did it - and they don't want to get someone in trouble when it was they think it was there fault.

it can *take* months for them to finally be able to deal with it, and be able to accept what happened to them.

if the requirement for abortion be that the person was raped, then saying that they were raped will require a bit more courage than they may have, at the moment. so anyways, if rape were to be the requirement, i don't think there should be a time limit.

there's also another manefistation of this same phenomen - battered wifes, spousal abuse, or whatever. they don't report it because they feel that they some how deserved it.

actually, there's some correspondance with this and Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, but i forget what it is, hehe - i have it in my notes for an old psychology class i took - maybe i'll get it out sometime :)
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Postby Evlfrost » Thu Mar 06, 2003 3:43 pm

I disagree about abortion being alright in rape situations. I belive that the baby is still a human life no matter what caused it. Even if the mother doesnt want the baby, theres still adoption.
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Postby Nyufrost » Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:36 pm

Like I said, if a female reports that she was raped, she will be sent to ER for an exam which includes a procedure than ensures she will not become pregnant from the rape.

As a male, I don't suppose you can even begin to imagine the emotional damage a rape causes and to carry the rapist's baby for 9 months just so you can give it up for adoption is a cruelty no rape victim should have to endure.

I am talking about physical violent rape by a stranger .... not "date rape" or spousal abuse.

Terra ... there *are* girls who willingly fool around with their boyfriends but then tell their parents they were raped if they get pregnant. I suppose it's to avoid any wrath they think the parents might unleash on them and to also relieve themselves of any responsibility.
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Postby TerraFrost » Thu Mar 06, 2003 11:59 pm

As a male, I don't suppose you can even begin to imagine the emotional damage a rape causes and to carry the rapist's baby for 9 months just so you can give it up for adoption is a cruelty no rape victim should have to endure.


that's a good point... having to endure a pregnancy that was forced upon you is kinda like being branded for nine months... it seems to me like it would be a perpetual reminder of the trauma...

of course... the flip side is... a girl who gets pregnant as a 14 year old may not be very emmotionaly stigamitized, but... her kid might. i mean, the kid won't be loved, will probably end up on the streets, and probably just end up as a menace to society.

at what point does emotional damage, or future damage to society outweigh ones right to... live?

of course then again, the other flip side is... at that point, it may not even be justly considered a life. i mean, a human fetus at that stage in life isn't that much more advanced than a rat, or something, probably.

I am talking about physical violent rape by a stranger .... not "date rape" or spousal abuse.

Terra ... there *are* girls who willingly fool around with their boyfriends but then tell their parents they were raped if they get pregnant. I suppose it's to avoid any wrath they think the parents might unleash on them and to also relieve themselves of any responsibility.


i can well imagine there are some girls who would cry rape when there really wasn't any, but... that doesn't mean date rape doesn't occur. in fact, according to this homepage (it's actually a point that has been driven into public school students numerious times in sex ed classes, in our district), most rapes are date rapes. 78% of them. and... 1 in every 4 women will be the victem of a date rape, or attempted date rape before they're 25. i mean, people wouldn't use the excuse if it wasn't a good and viable one. just because some people misrepresent the circumstances of their pregnancy doesn't mean everyone does.
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Postby Nyufrost » Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:06 am

Well ... I have a few issues with date rape, personally.

If you go on a date with someone and things aren't really happening chemistry-wise and you aren't interested in the guy and he just flat out attacks you ... then that is simply a violent, forcible rape and the fact you were on a date is irrelevant.

Also, if you are kissing and hugging your date and letting him feel you up and say NO at some point, well he still should back off even tho he's going to probably be mad and frustrated. Assuming he is your regular boyfriend and not just some stranger you picked up. Your bf is going to respect your wishes at that point but I think a stranger is going to see it as a "you led me on and u know u want it, u b*tch!" and probably become forcible. You could say the girl in that situation sort of brought it on herself by making out with a stranger but still she doesn't deserve to be physically hurt for it.. I think that is the only TRUE instance of so-called "date rape."

The final possibility, I don't even see as rape at all. You are not just willingly kissing and hugging and touching but also the clothes are coming off, the kissing and touching is now all over your body, you are both overcome with raw passion, he pushes your knees apart and is a 1/4 an inch away from penetration and you suddenly say NO! Now that is just ridiculous to cry "date rape" at that point. I'm sorry, but that's just letting it go too far. :|
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Mar 07, 2003 1:13 am

hmmm... i suppose my definition of date rape may be a bit... broad, heh.

but yeah... i would agree that that last situation you presented isn't really date rape. or if it is, it's on such a low scale, that it might as well just not count...

although i do think even regular boyfriends can sometimes rape their partners violently, or whatever...

i mean, there's nothing that says husbands have to be considerate, either - and sometimes they just... aren't, as spousal abuse sorta demonstrates...
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Postby Nyufrost » Fri Mar 07, 2003 2:30 am

Yes they can. And any form of violent rape is WRONG whether it's a stranger, regular boyfriend or spouse.

I think my point was to show that some instances of so-called rape are not really rape at all and --in those cases-- abortion should not be used as a post-birth control method in lieu of some initial responsibility.
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Postby OmegaFrost » Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:23 am

I think that abortion is pretty much just wrong even though at early stages the child is barley more than an internal organ but is still potential life. I dont think it should be done at anytime! And about the rape abortion concept it is just not a good enough excuse its better for it to be grown in a test tube then plain killed!
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Mar 07, 2003 3:43 am

like i was saying earlier, taking a pro-choice position isn't the same thing as taking a pro-abortion or an anti-abortion stance, even though it is often seen as an anti-abortion position...

so anyways, are ya'll, despite perhapes being anti-abortion, still pro-choice?
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