Wars of Beleriand

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Wars of Beleriand

Postby Rao » Sat Jan 25, 2003 7:12 pm

Through my studies of the wars of Beleriand I have come across something very interesting. It seems that though all the world was against Melkor, they could not unite. Now my guess was because the elves didnt trust men for it was easy for men to be corrupted. But I have read that through the battles, had The league of Maeghros and Gongolin connected sooner, and the corrputed men been found like they should have been,(But i think Saeron was the only one aware of his and he was chased to death by Turin)The whole battle of unnumbered tears could have been easily avoided. As much as I respect the works of Eru. Why would he design that to happen when he knew his beloved men would never rest until Melkor was brought back to the void or the prison with Mandos.

I saw a trivia by Evlfrost that asked "Who was destined to kill Melkor?" He did not know it himself but that was an inaccurate question for Melkor could not be killed, only diminshed. Second was because if any were to have killed Melkor, i would have been Tulkas. For he wrestled him twice and defeated the most powerful of the Valar.
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Postby TerraFrost » Sat Jan 25, 2003 8:03 pm

As much as I respect the works of Eru. Why would he design that to happen when he knew his beloved men would never rest until Melkor was brought back to the void or the prison with Mandos.


The question of how good a good god let bad things happen also plagues Christianity, and probably other religions, as well ;-)
speaking of which, i think in that aspect, although i've never read it, i would speculate that the bible reads a lot like the silmarillion...
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Postby Rao » Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:31 am

Terra! you need to read it. Tolkien puts his works around all religions. Norse and Celtic especially. I pray that you read it. I will send you mine if you need me to, but READ IT!
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Postby TerraFrost » Sun Jan 26, 2003 1:51 am

would the bible even talk about norse and celtic religions?
that's what i haven't read :lila:
i've read the silmarillion :)
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Postby Rao » Sun Jan 26, 2003 2:10 am

I must have misunderstood what you said. I was under the impression that you havent read the Silmarillion. Sowwe...

I mean that many religions he puts into the shaping of Middle-earth. Celtic,Norse, Christanity, and scottish lore are all put into his writing. I am just taking what Christopher as written. I am not big intoi Norse or Christian mythology. Celtic on the other hand.
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Postby Evlfrost » Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:26 pm

I however am big into Norse mythology (and Ive gone to church ever since I was born). There are many parrels between Christanity and middle earth (you have to remember that Tolkein was converted by his good friend and fellow writer CS Lewis). There are not so many parrels between it and norse mythology. And about Turin killing Melkor, read either "The Lost Tales" or "The Shaping of Middle Earth".
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Postby Rao » Mon Jan 27, 2003 9:31 pm

Evl, I mean that he cannot be killed in spririt. Melkor was a sissy in combat compared to Turin. The only thing that made Melkor tough was his size and Grond, his mace. Melkor was a god, in mind and spirit, but not combat. Drome and Tulkas wer gods in combat. If anyone was destined to bring down Melkor in Middle-earth, it would have been Turin. But not overall kill him.
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Postby Evlfrost » Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:21 pm

Well he has the help of Eonwe (Manwe's son) and Telimektar (Tulkas's son). Turin and Telimektar are standing beside Eonwe during the last battle. It also metions Eonwe killing Melkor as well so I think it is probably a joint venture.
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Postby Rao » Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:32 am

Ahh well neither did. The battle of unumbered tears torn up alot of Beleriand and especially tore up the armies against Melkor. Although, I finished drawing my invision of it. I drew the part where Gondolin shows up. Once I get my scanner in action, i will show thee.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Thu Jan 15, 2004 8:09 pm

A few points from a sillmarilion purist (meaning that I hold the stories in the Sillmarillion as to be the correct ones)

a) Melkor was great a fighter indeed. He beated Finwe and Fingolfin, who was probably the strongest of all elves (Feanor was the mightiest, but his might was not so much in his sword) I think Melkor could have bewitched Turin as Glaurung did without even looking at him. Only high elves and Ainur such Fingolfin, were really his foes, because they were strong against his magic, when theyr mood wa the right one (remember how Finrod fell not because of the weakness of his magic, but because of the sadness of the kinslaying and other nefast deeds of the Noldo). Only I must agree he was a coward.

b)It was the born Catholic Tolkien who converted the agnostic CS Lewis, although Lewis later become a renown "evangelist" of the faith. As in Christyianity and in other myths of religions, pain and suffering appear as a mistery. But this is a very philosofical concept, because without Melkor, and without evil, the world would not have its beauty.... This is not a problem of Tolkien's Eru, is a probvlem of our world, why was it created with death, pain, suffering and evil... Tolkiens try a romantic mythic explanation as good as nay other...

c) If not only Gondolin, but Nargothrond and Doriath had been there, and the Easterlings had not been traitors, probably the Sons of iluvatar in union could have beaten Morgoth. However, the doom of the Noldo was that they would not beat Morgoth precisely beacuse of the kinslaying and the pride of Feanor... It was in their doom that they would never be able to stand united.
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Postby Evlfrost » Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:41 am

Umm are you sure it was Tolkien who converted Lewis? I thought it was vice versa heh.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:24 am

Pretty Sure. i read Humphrey Carpenters bio on Tolkien, and my memory had to be extremely bad (something like enchanted by Glaurung) to remember things in the wrong sequence.
Part of the agnosticism of Lewis came from the fact that he thought that the Bible in its literal was unbelievable. Lewis despised both myths and religion together as Children tales... Tolkien convinced him of the validity of th myth as a form to express higher phiolosophical ideas and ideals that logic language and description can only partly describe but never treansmit with all its strength. Once Tolkien had convinced him of the validity of myth, Lewis could see the greatness of the Biible and of the religion as a whole (more or less is what the book said)
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Postby Evlfrost » Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:13 pm

Ah. Then Lewis went on the write stuff like The Chronicles of Narnia and Mere Christanity (both are very good btw).
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:42 pm

That's right. And now Lewis is considered one of the writters whose stories more actively try to persuade of the Christian ideals!
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