Fingolfin

[Rao]

Fingolfin is my favorite character out of all the elves,dwarves,men or anythin ever introduced. When I read the Silmarillion, for some reason, i am not sure of, I was greatly interested in this Elf. He had done many great deeds, and had it not been for his half brother Feanor, I think Fingolfin would have killed Morgoth.

[Evlfrost]

Well even though Im not sure what Feanor had to do with it. Fingolfin was one of the most powerful elf that ever lived. He managed to scare Morgoth 7 times before he died. Morgoth was filled with so much shame that he never again came out of Thangorodrim. But my fav is Turin.

[TerraFrost]

Feaner bound himself to the oath of feaner, and thus the curse of the valar...
i think beren and luthien, of all people, stood the best chance of killing morgoth, actually. if that was what they were trying to do, that is...

[Evlfrost]

I dont think Beren and Luthien could have killed Morgoth. There is such a thing as fate.

[TerraFrost]

hehe - i misspoke in my first reply... fingolofin bound himself to the oath of feaner, and thus the curse of the valar...

so anyways, if beren and luthien couldn't have killed morgoth because of fate, then i don't think fingolofin could have, either. i mean, the curse of the valar was a much more pronounced fate, i would think, than beren and luthien cutting the silmaril from morgoth's crown...

[Rao]

Fingolfin didnt bind himself. The oath came to him because he was of the same blood as Feanor. When the two dispised each other, the curse didnt hurt Fingolfin, but when he gave his alleignace to Feanor. It was then his bane also.

[Rao]

As for cutting of the silmaril, That was the greatest thing acheived except the seven wounds given to Morgoth from Fingolfin and the one great wound give by Thorondor, who also recovered Fingolfin's body.

Sorry for this double post, but i wasnt thinking about Beren when I was talking about Fingolfin.

[Tar-Herunole]

Well, about the binding of Fingolfin, he was not bond by the Oath of Feanor, but he was dommed by the prophecy of Mandos, because he went ahead to Beleriand instead of remaining in Aman as Finarfin did. For that prophecy, non of the Noldor would have been able to defeat Melkor. Elves were really subject to doom and to the fate, and could not avoid it. Only Beren was able to gain over his doom, because only men are able to fight their own doom. Turin would have been able to win over his doom if he had saved Finduilas... but he was not able.

I agree Fingolfin is one of the greatest characters... when you read about some of his deeds, like forgiving Feanor in Aman, or riding against Morgoth you really feel his majesty, generosity, nobelty and valour.

But not less of those qualities had his son, Fingon the Valiant, that as his father later, went alone to Thangorodrim to save his friend Maedhros, even when he knew yet not that Maedhros had opposed the burning of the Ships and defended to go back with the ships to ferry the house of Fingolfin. In this action both the forgiveness of his father for Feanor, and the defying of Morgoth were together....

Finrod Felagund is another character about whom I could write more and more

And finally Madrhos, save his attack of Doriath, was glorious as any of the previous. His endurance of the penalty of hanging in Thangorodrim, his generosity to give the Kingship to the House of Fingolfin, his willingness to take the more difficult part to defend of the Siege of Angband... I think Fingon had all reasons to think of him as a loyal and worthy friend....

[TerraFrost]

i thought the doom of the noldor only applied to those who were bound by the oath of feanor?

as for men being the only ones who are able to fight their own doom... that's pretty nifty - i didn't know that

i actually thougt the only diff was that men were mortal and that, upon death, they would go to timeless halls, whereas elves would, upon death, go to the halls of mandos.

[Evlfrost]

"i thought the doom of the noldor only applied to those who were bound by the oath of feanor? "

The doom of the noldor bound all noldor who forsoke the blessed lands and went into exile. The only people who actually took the outh of Feanor were Feanor and his sons. The fall of nargothond and gondolin were due to doom of the noldor.

"And finally Madrhos, save his attack of Doriath, was glorious as any of the previous. His endurance of the penalty of hanging in Thangorodrim, his generosity to give the Kingship to the House of Fingolfin, his willingness to take the more difficult part to defend of the Siege of Angband... I think Fingon had all reasons to think of him as a loyal and worthy friend...."

It was also said that Maedhros when feanor and co landed on the shores of middle earth, asked who they were going to bring back next. "Fingon the valiant?" was his first choice. He did not like his fathers choice to burn the ships. He was apparantly a good friend of Fingons back in Valinor.

[Tar-Herunole]

Evlfrost is right. There is two different dooms, the one that applied to Feanor and his Sons and derived from his Oath, and given that it was made calling Iluvatar as a witness, and against whoever, be man, elf or Valar, was not forgivable, and it led to the death of all of the Sons of Feanor, and to the madness of the last two remaining, maedhros, who hadd shown many times more restraint, and Maeglor the Singer. Even when only those two (the most moderate of the brothers, thanks to the influx of their mother) were remaining and Morgoth had been defeated by the Valar, they could not avoid their fate and had to steal their Sillmarillions... and that was their lost as the Sillmarillion burned them and drove them mad...

But the rest of Noldor who went into Exile, as well as any other who got involved in the hunt of the Sillmarills (such as King Thingol or his son Dior) were affected by the Prophecy of Mandos, and only after Earendil ask for forgivance and pity for the two kins (men and elves) were all of them free from their doom.

Elves were the first born, and his fate was part of the original theme of the Ainur that Iluvatar inspired. The Ages of the Elves were a reflection of that Music, and Mandos knew most about it... The elves were inmortal and their spirits would remain within Arda, either in the Middle Earth or in Aman. And for that reason their fate was tide to that of Arda, and they could not change it... they were more linked to nature, so their role in the world was more inexorable...

But the men were mortal, and his fate was not so tied to Arda... besides, the Song of the Ainur, ended with the coming of the Followers, and not even mandos knew about the destiny of Arda after the first Ages.. only Manwe, as he was the one who understood better the thinking of Iluvatar, had a glimpse, but kne not the whole picture... because actually the future of men is open...

As another example, not only Beren managed to win over his fate, but also Tuor, who alone within men, was brought to Aman, and his fate was sundered from that of Men, and he was there inmortal...

[TerraFrost]

that's a really informative post - thanks!

[Evlfrost]

You know, I often wondered about what happend to Maglor. When Maedhros and Maglor took the Silmarils, the pain of it drove Maedhros mad and he cast himself into a giant chasm. While Maglor who also couldnt stand the pain, cast his into the sea. Then apparantly he wandered the shores singing of his lament. I think it would have been neat if he came back later in the third age and redeemed himself heh. I could just imagine Galadriel and Maglor meeting. Elrond and Maglor wouldnt be as fun because they happend to be friends. Cirdan and Maglor would be interesting though.

[TerraFrost]

that's another interesting post

[Tar-Herunole]

I agree... although what the greeks the "catharsis" , the purification through pain and pity would have worked a lot of cleaning, specially in creatures that do grow sorrowful like the elves. Maybe after seein what the kinslaying, and the fights between allies had done, they would be able to accept Maeglor and forgive his evils (I am alwayss such an optimist )