fate of orcs, and other creatures of middle earth

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them. One forum to bring it all and in the darkness bind them.

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Postby Rao » Mon Jan 27, 2003 9:23 pm

Read the passage in the Silmarillion where AR-Pharazon leaves with the Great armament, and when they leave Numenor, it is an easy error to make and I hve done. Men cannot touch the undying lands. It would cause a dischord in the designs. Do you think that the Valor would call on Eru just to stop them from attacking. Send out Tulkas and let him have some fun. But that wasn't the case.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:33 pm

uhhh.... so many interesting things! :)

There is nothing written by Tolkien, but I would support Orcs go to the Hall of Mandos, the same that Feanor went despite all of his evil deeds... I think if Melkor could sustract the elfs he captured from their destiny, he could claim in truth to be victorious over Eru, for he would have stolen part of his sons.
In the same way, I think that Ocs would die because the weariness typical of the elves in middle-earth will grow much faster in them

ABout Men, the Silmarillion says that the fate of Men after death is not told in the music of the Ainur. It opens the possibility of them having a special place isolated from the elves in the Gardens of Mandos, but it says that only Mandos and maybe Manwe knows if this is true.

Also we have to remember, Beren was in Aman and returned to Middle Earth, but that did not made him immortal

the idea of men being cast into the void, makes sense from a christian paralellism with the devil (who's the fallen angel) and Hell. However it seems more coherent with the rest of Tolkien world, that the place of men is a completely different plane...
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Postby Evlfrost » Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:45 am

Orcs go to the halls of mandos? That I do not agree with. Orcs, while being spanned from elves, are a completly different race. Feanor went to the halls of mandos because he was after all, an elf. Orcs are not elves and have no place there. But an interesting question would be, Are orcs 'immortal'? You see a glimpse that they might be because some of the more powerful orcs (the ones that dont get killed off by each other) stay around for centries.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:34 pm

You might be right, but it could be as well that once dead, they could reincarnate in mandos in the elf they should had been
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:55 pm

Tar-Herunole's idea sounds plausible, to me :)
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:38 am

My main problem with the orcs not going to Mandos, is that the fact of condemning the elves that were tortured and transformed into orcs to the void, goes against the christian and tolkenian principle that every individual has in its hands the opportunity to redeem himself. And the Silmarillion says that melkor could not create no race anew, for he had not the umperishable flame. So the orcs woulod remain perverted elfs even in the coming generations.
But still this is my guess.
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Postby Evlfrost » Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:36 am

Well yeah that could be a problem. But the thing is, would Mandos except them? I cant see them letting aside a place for orcs. I think that they are cast into the void. I remember reading something about there being a host of vile creatures with melkor in the void. I think this was in the Lost Tales. I need to read that again heh.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:20 pm

that's very plausoible, but I guess it refers to Maiar who voluntarily took the wrong path such as Balrogs and so... There is nowhere said that the elves needed to be good to reincarnate in Mandos, so I guess that the orcs could reincarnate in Mandos in the body they should have had, and even if their turning to corruption was not voluntary they would have to live for eternity on the knowledge of their dreadful deeds, being that enough punishment
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Postby TerraFrost » Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:33 am

so it sorta seems we're settled - orcs go to the halls of mandos. what happens from there is open for debate.

anyways, what about uruk-hai? would-be elves bred with men would make for half-elves, of the same vein as elrond and elros (well, without the maian blood, of course, although if there were maiar that were orcs, then hmmm), so would they get the same choices that elrond and elros had? for some reason, i kinda doubt it, heh.
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Postby Evlfrost » Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:34 am

Well I myself am personally not convinced that orcs go to the halls of mandos :lila

So then with my opinion uruk hai would be cast out into the void also...
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Postby Lord Reefer » Fri Jan 30, 2004 2:56 pm

The thing to remember, as Terra said, is that there are several species of orc and they are quite different.

In the 'Silmarillion' the orcs are said to have been bred by Melkor from captured Elves although in 'Unfinished Tales' it speculates that they were made by Morgoth from various kinds of men. Either way these NORMAL orcs are the most common and usually dwell in Mordor.

Also from Mordor are the larger and stronger Uruks. Little is said about these or where they came from but they are clearly a different species from normal orcs.

Then there are the Moria orcs which evolved completely seperately under the rule of the Great Goblin until he was killed in the Hobbit. These orcs lived under the misty mountain and definately did not work for Sauron. They lived and worked seperately from the control of Mordor and often fought with Sauron's orcs. ( eg the Twin Towers )

Finally the cross breeded Uruk-Hai that Saruman created using his powers in Eisengaard. These are totally different again from other species of orc.

I think it is wrong to speek of all orcs as the same. They are clearly not the same and do not necessarily all die and go to the same place. Remember 'orc' is just the Elven word for goblin which is a general word to describe all these kinds of creatures.
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:29 pm

aside from who has power over them, i thought the moria and morder orcs were identical (although as in the balrog thread, i haven't read the lord of the rings in quite a while).

also, i had actually kinda forgotten about the great goblin ruling the orcs in the hobbit... i wonder how the balrog plays into all that.

also, how close was bilbo and co. to khazad dum, when they were in the misty mountains? were they actually close enough to moria for the orcs they encountered to be called moria orcs?
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Postby Lord Reefer » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:49 pm

TerraFrost wrote:aside from who has power over them, i thought the moria and morder orcs were identical (although as in the balrog thread, i haven't read the lord of the rings in quite a while).


Its true they probably originated the same way, but the Moria orcs moved underground and as such had mutated and adapted themselves to live in the earth. If you look closesly at the film, you see they are much skinnier and have large bulbous eyes to see in the dark.

TerraFrost wrote:also, i had actually kinda forgotten about the great goblin ruling the orcs in the hobbit... i wonder how the balrog plays into all that.


The thing everyone forgets is the Balrog was banished deep within the earth. It is not until the dwarves start to dig too deep that they uncover him. What's not clear is which dwarves. The original inhabitants were led by Durin I think. But the Later expedition led by Balin also settled and worked in the mines. Balin is the one Gimley is so upset at finding his tomb (Balin being one of the dwarf party from the Hobbit as well as Gimleys dad Gloin)

If it was Balin's dwarves that unearthed the Balrog then it had not yet been discovered at the time of the Hobbit.

TerraFrost wrote:also, how close was bilbo and co. to khazad dum, when they were in the misty mountains? were they actually close enough to moria for the orcs they encountered to be called moria orcs?


When Bilbo and the Dwarves crossed the Misty mountains they did so much further north than the fellowship. It was there that they find the Goblins and Gollums cave. The fellowship enters Moria much further south as they were heading for a different location but I believe the Goblins had moved south and inhabited Moria, so they would be the same ones that slaughtered the dwarves and took over
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Postby chaotic century » Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:19 pm

this is probably late n stuff but orcs r corrupted elves as everybody knos but they a creations of melkor so they would have no good in them. elves r the light n orcs r the darkness so even tho they were created from elves they have no good in them as it was forced out of them n they were turned into pure evil.as for men i think they would go to the halls of mandos.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Sun Feb 29, 2004 3:28 am

CC, I think it's quite unanimous in the Sillmarillion that men do not go to Mandos, but somewhere outside of Arda.
About ORcs, the Sillmarillion syas that Melkor cannot create, can only corrupt, so orcs are corrupted elves, but not creatures of Melkor, as Dwarves could be from Aule. Their evil is therefore inducted and circumstantial, and not essential (Actually evil is essential to the concept of orc, but not to the essence of the orcs)
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