fate of orcs, and other creatures of middle earth

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fate of orcs, and other creatures of middle earth

Postby TerraFrost » Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:28 pm

elves go to the halls of mandos, after death
humans, it is theorized, leave arda.
drawves, it is theorized, return to aule.
so, what about orcs?
or for that matter, what about ents, great eagles, spiders, or dragons?
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Postby Evlfrost » Tue Jan 21, 2003 6:05 pm

Ents are the creation of Aule's wife Yavanna. They practically life forever unless there are killed. Maybe they go to Yavanna and help her with her gardoning.

Orcs, Dragons and whatnot are creations of Melkor. I dont belive they have an afterlife.

Great Eagles are Manwe's so...
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Postby TerraFrost » Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:03 pm

well, orcs are just corrupted / enslaved elves, so... i would think that they would go to the halls of mandos, after death, as well... unless the elf part of them dies when they become elves...
and only the first generation of orcs would be corrupted orcs, anyways - if orcs went to the halls of mandos, when they died, then what about second generation orcs, or later?

and where's rao!?
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Postby Evlfrost » Tue Jan 21, 2003 10:45 pm

Orcs have nothing evlish left in them. They are like the oppisite of elves. Just as trees and the ground and everything else loves the elves, they hate the orcs. So I dont think that orcs go to the halls of Mandos.
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Postby TerraFrost » Tue Jan 21, 2003 11:05 pm

just because they have a different midnset than orcs doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't still elves themselves. i mean, melkor has a vastly different mindset than the rest of the valar, yet he is still counted amoung their ranks :lila:
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Postby Evlfrost » Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:21 am

No he is not counted among theyre ranks anymore (re-read the Valaquenta). But saying orcs are elves is like saying humans are monkeys. They might have come from elves but are no longer elves.
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Postby TerraFrost » Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:02 am

ok - that was a poor choice of words - my point was that he is still a valar - and he has all the characteristics that the valar have. as far as elves and ents are concerned, let me quote from the silmarilian:

"...yet this is held true by the wise of Eressea, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes."


it seems to me like they did a little more than just come from elves... it seems to me, from this line, that they are elves :lila:

actually, reading this line makes me wonder... can orcs die of old age, like men can?
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Postby Rao » Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:00 am

Terra, thta is not true about the orcs not having an afterlife, for Tolkien himself said that though they are evil, they do have their place, My only guess would be the void.


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Postby TerraFrost » Wed Jan 22, 2003 3:06 am

i never said the orcs didn't have an afterlife - i was asking if they did, and if so, what it was :lila:
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Postby Rao » Wed Jan 22, 2003 1:53 pm

sorry, i actually meant to say Evl, but Terra came out.

Tolkien never explained where the went, and that is what i best love about him. The way to let you in on something but dont. Ents, speaking race, free people, Why arent they destined for anything other than bordom. Dwarves, Tolkien always said that "they", they meaning the dwarves want to return to Aule, This wasnt in the plans of Iluvatar at the moment, remember, when he caught Aule, he wanted to kill them. The way he can tell what they want and leave out what happens is just amazing, it is really sad he never finshed what he started.
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Postby Evlfrost » Thu Jan 23, 2003 3:52 pm

Hmm...That might make since (the thing about orcs being out in the void). I remember something in the Lost Tales that was talking about what happens to men after they die. Apparantly the evilier you were in life, the furhter into the void your spirit goes. And that melkor would often torture the souls that he caught out in the void. So it could be that orcs are out there with melkor helping to catch what prey they can.
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Postby Rao » Fri Jan 24, 2003 3:56 am

No not Melkor, He is wanders through the void aimlessly, ever searching for the flame imperishable which he thinks is in their. As for men dying, should they go anyplace, it would be to the hall of Mandos, but the void, no, but it could be. For Iluvata favored men so he wouldnt send them to the void. They may even go to the Timeless halls with Eru himself.
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Postby Evlfrost » Fri Jan 24, 2003 3:01 pm

Earendil sails through the void in his ship right? As for men that may be true. They are not bound to come back as elves are.
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Postby Rao » Sat Jan 25, 2003 1:43 am

The thing was that Men COULD NOT touch the undying lands, or this would make them immortal, thus causing the greatest dischord in Aulindale, and going against the designs of Iluvatar, that would've been bad has Ar-Pharazon reached Valinor. That would piss Iluvatar off greatly, he probably would've destroyed the world, not just change it.
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Postby Evlfrost » Mon Jan 27, 2003 5:32 pm

The thing is that being in the undying lands does not make you immortal. The Valar did not want men there because of all the greif they would cause ie. dying. Valanor was supposed to be a refuge from greif for the elves not a playing ground for men.
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