magic and men

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magic and men

Postby TerraFrost » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:25 pm

and it's kinda funny... when reading the hobbit, i thought of gandolf as a man who had just learned magic, over the years. this kinda begged the question... how can other people learn magic? why doesn't everyone train as a wizard, and become as gandolf? i mean, sauron (or the necromancer, or whomever) wouldn't stand a chance in that case. in the silmarilion, we learn that he is not just a man, so that sorta solves the problem. but what about the mouth of sauron? it is said (as i recall) that he was but a man, not enhanced by any ring of power, who just learned the magic to prolong his life.
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Postby Lord Reefer » Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:00 pm

The only description I know of is from the Silmarillion:

"Of old there was Sauron the Maia, whom the Sindar in Beleriand named Gorthaur. In the beginning of Arda, Melkor seduced him to his allegiance, and he became the greatest and most trusted of the servants of the enemy, and the most perilous, for he could assume many forms, and for long if he willed he could still appear noble and beautiful, so as to deceive all but the most wary. "

Bearing in mind that the Istari (wizards) were Maiar also, sent from Aman in the third age to resist Sauron. So Sauron is basically similar to Gandalf in that they are both Maia and most likely not born of middle-earth.

Obviously rings can enhance their power as we see with Gandalf and the ring given to him by Cirdan the Shipright. Unfortunately as far as we know, Sauron learns how to make the most powerful ring of them all
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:50 pm

the mouth of sauron is actually a different person than sauron... he meets aragorn at the gates of morder, and of him, this description is given:

"The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr he was, and his name is remembered in no tale; for he himself had forgotten it, and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.' But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge. And he entered the service of the Dark Tower when it first rose again, and because of his cunning he grew ever higher in the Lord's favour; and he learned great sorcery, and knew much of the mind of Sauron; and he was more cruel than any orc."
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Postby Lord Reefer » Sat Jan 31, 2004 7:43 am

Cool !! I didn't know that. Was that from Unfinished Tales ?, guess I'll have to read it again. Sigh..... :cry:
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Postby TerraFrost » Sat Jan 31, 2004 10:04 pm

actually, i believe it was from the return of the king - although he was only mentioned that once.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Sat Jan 31, 2004 11:56 pm

I am not sure if the whole description is in TLOTR, but most of it, it is.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Sun Feb 01, 2004 2:59 pm

Coming back to the topic, Magic has a complicated nature, and not much is said. It is difficult to say if it's closer to technology, or to religion. In one side, those closer to the Ainuralways had more magic, what makes me think more about a religious nature. But in the other side, the magic of Saruman, creating enhanced Uruk-hais or explosives or rams, sounds like technology, (like do as welll the firecrackers of Gandalf)
If I had to make a guess, I would say that magic is actually a kind of mysticism, like a better knowledge of the essence of nature and its underlying forces, including those who are beyond the phisic world (i.d. the spiritual forces) that allows the wizard to use them and tweak them to his own profit or goals. That would expalin that the Ainur and those near to them would have so much magic, because they understand Nature as their creators, and those who lived near them learnt it from them. But also would explain how Saruman or the Numenorians could use Magic perversely. That's the difference with religion, or clerical magic, where is not the caster who acts on Nature, but the actions of the Gods themselves summoned by the caster. And it would also differ from technology, as technology don't understand the essence of nature, but it's external and superficial rules. And in any case, technology disregards spiritual forces. But all three would be somehow linked, like the perfect magic sword needs not only magic, but also good smithing.

Why then was not learned by all humans? Well I guess the first answer would be that even if the knowledge and the paths were readily avaiolable, not everyone would be gifted enough in terms of intelligence and intutition to attempt it, and even among those gifted, not all of them would have the strength of will, as there are not so many people that can become asceths, great scientifics, or great athlethes in our world. Those things require the kind of effort and dedication that most are not willing to give.
The second reason would be that masters were not so commonly available. Only the Numenoreans had great wizards and sorceres and used Magic in a daily basis. Outside of the Numenoreans only the grimoir snake of Rohan is known to be an effective sorcerer as far as I remember.
The thirrd reason connected with the previous two is that it probably took time to internalize the power of magic, so only elves and long lived numenorians were really good at it. That enforces that difference with Technology, as tech can be learn from books and the advances of a previous generation are useful to the next. But it seems that the spiritual and intuitional elements of magic made it necessary for the woizard to advance in his own, like a mystic or an asceth.
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The Mouth of Sauron

Postby Lord Reefer » Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:11 pm

I've done some reading and can find little about him. I actually remembered him simply as the messenger (by which he is also refered to)

The only bits I can find is that he was also called the Leutenant of the Tower and was due to go to Eisengaard to rebuild it and replace Saruman.

The only other bit says he was a 'Black Numinorian' who worshipped Sauron. It says that he became cunning and learnt sorcery.

Anyone elso know anything about the 'Black Numinorians?'
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Postby Evlfrost » Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:20 pm

Yeah they are numenorians that were corrupted by sauron. The cosairs that aragorn killed while taking over the ships might have been decendants of them.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Thu Feb 05, 2004 4:50 pm

I remember TLOTR MERP assumed Corssairs were Black Numenorians.
In the Sillmarillion, in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, it is mentioned that before the Great Alliance, when Suaron went to Mordor, among his servants wre "not a few of the High race of Numenor" and later continues"But because of the power of Gil-Galad"these renegades, lords both mighty and evil, for the most part took up their abode in the southlands far away"
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