orcan maiar?

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orcan maiar?

Postby TerraFrost » Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:27 am

this is kinda interesting...

in Vol. 11, of the History of Middle Earth, Christopher Tolkien writes...

In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits — some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).


* [footnote to the text] Boldog, for instance, is a name that occurs many times in the tales of the War. But it is possible that Boldog was not a personal name, and either a title, or else the name of a kind of creature: the Orc-formed Maiar, only less formidable than the Balrogs.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:09 pm

The creator of the Orc race is Tolkien, no doubt about it. To put it simple, he told us that the Orcs were distorted Elves, corrupted to a race of slaves by an evil and rebellious God, Melkor. Sauron was a mere servant of this first dark lord.

"...and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar; and naught that had life of its own, nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the Beginning; so say the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the vilest deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar." - "Of the Coming of the Elves", Silmarillion

For J. R. R. Tolkien, the origin of the Orcs remained a problem. The existence of creatures that in effect weren't allowed a free choice between good and evil, conflicted with his Christian worldviews. One important part of his philosophy was that evil was incapable of creating anything on it's own. Therefore he early dismissed the idea of Orcs being bred from 'primeval slime' by the evil Vala Melkor. But who were the ancestors of the Orcs? If they were of Elvish origin, they would appear at the Halls of Mandos after their death, and bring evil to the Land of the Gods.


However I think that maybe Christopher is using Orc in a more lax sense, meaning something more close to Goblin, or evil creature. this could be explained by the pre-Tolien meaning of the word and its ethimology:
Orc
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.


A Latin word for a demon or a creature of the underworld, the word Orc was revived by J. R. R. Tolkien in his fictional stories of Middle-earth as the name of a race of creatures that are often used by evil forces as soldiers.


Sources of the name "orc"
Orcus, in Roman mythology, was an alternative name for Pluto, Hades, or Dis Pater, god of the land of the dead. The name "Orcus" seems to have been given to his evil, punishing side, as the god who tormented evildoers in the afterlife.

Pliny the Elder wrote of orcs in his Historia naturalis, describing a sea monster with large teeth. In Orlando Furioso, an epic by Ludovico Ariosto, the name of "orc" was given to a sea monster that captured the damsel Angelica, and was fought by the hero Rogero riding a hippogriff. It is this use of the word that gave us the term orcinus orca as the scientific name for the killer whale.

From this usage, the word "orc" made it into English by being borrowed by Michael Drayton in his Polyolbion, an epic poem about Brutus the Trojan and the mythical founders of Britain, and also appears in the epic poem Paradise Lost, by John Milton. William Blake names one of the characters in his complex mythology "Orc"; Blake's Orc, a proper name, seems to be the embodiment of creative passion and energy, and stands opposed to Urizen, the embodiment of reason.


I think they may also appear in Beowulf
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Postby Evlfrost » Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:31 am

Hmm....I think what Herunole is saying is right. Although they could just be using a fana that looks like orcs. But Something caught my eye, in one of the quotes it mentioned an earlier, more powerful and perilous orc. I think that as the orcs bred, they became less and less like elves. Seeing as how the orcs could not stand up to the might of the elves in the latter days. Breeding orcs with men to make Uruk Hai seemed like an act of desperation to Sauron. He was wanting to make the orcs like they used to be, more like the elves.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:51 am

that could be right, but Uruk Hais seem to be more powerful than any previous Orc as they could march for long, were more ntelligent, and specially, could stand daylight
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Postby Evlfrost » Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:09 am

But then again, we dont know much about the early orcs now do we? In the silmarillion it said that orcs were more powerful and numerous in those days.
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Postby TerraFrost » Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:33 am

if orcs, as a whole, have sorta been decaying, could the uruk-hai of the end of the third age be on par with the orcs of the early first age, if not a little inferior to them?
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