sauron vs. melkor

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sauron vs. melkor

Postby TerraFrost » Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:36 am

in addition to the fact that his power declined due to his defiance of eru, melkors power also declined on a number of other occasions - the most prominent one being the one in which melkor lost his ability to change form, thanks to the wrath of ungoliant, when she didn't get the silmarils from him.

saurons power probably also declined, but not nearly as much. perhapes this was because he was a mere servant of melkor, but it was also because he wasn't attacked as melkor was.

anyways, the fact is that both of them lost power. however, it seems that melkor, at the end of his life on arda, was just about as powerful as sauron was, at the end ofh is life on arda. melkor was defeated by an army led by a single maiar, as i recall. likewise, gandolf was defeated by a single maiar - gandolf. not directly, yes, but gandolf pretty much directed the armies of middle earth.

also, considering that they were of equal power only after his defeat by elendil and the burning of his body in the destruction of numenor, it stands to reason that sauron was more powerful, in the second age, before the destruction of numenor, than melkor was, before he was cast into the timeless halls.

so, before the destruction of numenor, sauron was more powerful than melkor was at the end. at the begining, melkor was more powerful than sauron. their positions can't have switched without them being equal atleast at one point, so... i'm currious... when do ya'll think that point is? when do ya'll think melkor and sauron were of equal power?
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:50 pm

Wouldn't you think that at any point, if Sauron had felt stronger than Melkor, would have turned against him as Ungoliant did? I don't think Sauron was at any point stronger than Melkor until Melkor was cast into the Void.
However you have a point. The Silmarillion tells us how Melkor lost his power by creating Orcs, trolls, Dragions and other creatures, and giving them part of himself. He also lost power that was given to Ungoliant, and lost more power in any of his defeats or unclean victories (such as when Fingolfin attacked him).
In the other side we do read how Sauron on the opposite was not loosing but gaining power instead on the first age. I think (and that's not anymore my reading, but only my guessing) that Sauropn, after the forging of the Rings, and after taking part of the power of the Smiths of Eregion, and the Spirits of the nine men become more powerful than Sauron had been in his twilight. Howevewr, even then, the most of his power was not as a standalone entity, but as a mighty general. He managed to create with Saruman Uruk-Hai, and even his mightiest creation, the one ring. I think that Sauron, coming from more humble origins, and having experienced the Wars of the first Age, was more wise and humble than the powerful Melkor, and his tactics were more sutile...
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Postby TerraFrost » Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:18 am

that's a good point. however, something to consider is that sauron wasn't like ungolliant - sauron didn't chose to serve only himself in arda, initially, and as such, would he really be as ungoliant, if the chance came? of course, it could also be that sauron wanted power, but he was just more patient than ungolliant was, and sorta wanted to take the empire melkor had built for his own - not just make his own, as ungolliant sorta did.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Thu Jan 15, 2004 7:53 pm

That's true.. I also considered that. Although Melkor was more powerful (at least at the beginning) Sauron being more humble could have thought a better strategy to serve Melkor and wait for his time. Although I still think for the most part Melkor was stronger... I mean that maybe Sauron in its higher point was stronger than Melkor in his lowest point... but never while Melkor was alive.
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Postby Evlfrost » Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:46 am

Well it was said that Melkor was given the most power of the ainur. Not even Manwe was as powerful as Melkor in his prime.
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Jan 16, 2004 5:29 pm

i have to sorta wonder... what good is being the most powerful when it doesn't mean that you're the strongest (tulkas was), the best smith (aule was), the best hunter (orome was, iirc), etc... i guess it means that melkor, while he may not have excelled in any one area, he had the best general abilities?
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Postby Evlfrost » Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:03 pm

You know, thats a good point. Melkors domain is darkness and ice. Those are some pretty powerful domains. Though what that would do against another valar is beyond me. Tulkas's strength came in handy so that Melkor couldnt change fanas and escape. Maybe it was natural charisma...
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:46 am

Also fire was his specilaty, for the Aunilindale says that his first intention to destroy the sea, turned water in snow, but also in vapour that formed the clouds that united the friends Manwe and Ulmo, and then the rivers... so all the evil that Melkor attempted turned creation into a more beautiful thing

He was definitely the best at destroying things :lol But I guess that his status as learner of all trades master or none (or maybe master of all trades perfect in none) comes from the fact that he was alone and could not concentrate his power in one element alone
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Postby Evlfrost » Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:42 am

That might be true. Its interesting how he could be master of both heat and cold. Ive always wondered about that. Look at darkness. Darkness isnt a thing - its an absense of a thing - light. Whereas cold is merely the absense of heat.
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Postby TerraFrost » Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:39 am

or maybe master of all trades perfect in none


that idea has some appeal to me :)

as for melkor being a master of darkness... well, it's possible, but he wasn't *the* master - or the one who had perfect mastery, or whatever - that was ungoliant - for it was ungoliant, not melkor, who wrought the unlight, through which none in varda could see.

also, it's interesting to note that melkor really feared the water, in general... iirc, he tried to corrupt some maiar, whose name i forget, but failed, when ulmo caught him. it always sorta surprised me - that this mere maiar could become the lord of the waters, with melkors endorsement, ousting a valar, with the endorsement of all the other valar.
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Postby Evlfrost » Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:43 am

I belive it was Osse that Melkor tried to corrupt. He actually succeeded for a short time, but eventually he went back. Interestingly enough, Osse is often the one that controls storms but his wife Uinen is the one that brings about calm waters...
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Sat Jan 17, 2004 3:16 pm

Right it was Osse, and bacause his tempporal obedience to Melkor is that Storms are so destructive. As for how to substitute a valar, I guess we have said quite a lot on the relative strengths of Melkor and Sauron... If melkor had won more Maiar to his cause,maybe they could have defeated the Valar and throw them into the void
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Postby Evlfrost » Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:35 pm

Hmmm...wernt the balrogs maia of fire?
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:19 pm

Actually Balrog is demon of might, and not demon of fire as some may thought. I think their terrible appeareance included fire, but that was not their true esence (maybe I am wrong though)
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Postby Evlfrost » Sun Jan 18, 2004 5:42 am

If they were a demon of might, then why would an Elf be able to kill the strongest of them?
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