Glorfindel

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them. One forum to bring it all and in the darkness bind them.

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Postby Lord Reefer » Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:48 pm

Two thing to remember about the elves.

1. They had given up. They were leaving middle earth. They wanted no part in fighting Sauron again. They had gone down that road before and were let down by men. It was the time of men to stand alone. Besides, Lord Elrond, Celeborn, Cirden, Galadriel were all Kings and wisest of all elves. Even if the elves got involved, you would not send your best kings and leaders to certain doom basically alone.

2. Some of the Elves you have mentioned were ring bearers. Remember the three Elven rings were the only ones left. The seven dwarven rings were gone forever. The nine rings of men, well, look what happened to their ring bearers !! (Nazgul) There is no way the Elven ringbearers would march straight to Mordor and hand themselves in on a plate.
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Postby Lord Reefer » Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:54 pm

Two things to remember about the elves.

1. They had given up. They were leaving middle earth. They wanted no part in fighting Sauron again. They had gone down that road before and were let down by men. It was the time of men to stand alone. Besides, Lord Elrond, Celeborn, Cirden, Galadriel were all Kings and wisest of all elves. Even if the elves got involved, you would not send your best kings and leaders to certain doom basically alone.

2. Some of the Elves you have mentioned were ring bearers. Remember the three Elven rings were the only ones left. The seven dwarven rings were gone forever. The nine rings of men, well, look what happened to their ring bearers !! (Nazgul) There is no way the Elven ringbearers would march straight to Mordor and hand themselves in on a plate.

But I'd have to agree that Lord Glorfindel was indeed a powerful elf. Remember in the book, he was the one to rescue Frodo after he had been stabbed. And he was the one that got him across the river and began the spell that Elrond and Gandalf finished off to wash away the Nazgul. I'd have to agree that Glorfindel should have been in the fellowship. Who says it had to be nine. Why not ten ?

Besides, as someone pointed out, the wood elves were represented by Legolas, why were the High Elves (Elronds lot) not represented ?
Last edited by Lord Reefer on Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:06 pm

Lord Reefer wrote:Two thing to remember about the elves.

Besides, as someone pointed out, the wood elves were represented by Legolas, why were the High Elves (Elronds lot) not represented ?


my guess:

Tar-Herunole wrote:You may be right evl...
Glorfindel was much more powerful and wise that Legolas. However, I guess that the choice of Legolas was more appropriate for two reasons. The first is that being glorfindel a Noldo, he was (likewise Elrond or Galadriel) already with one foot in Aman, where the rest of his House dwelled. Legolas in the opposite was a gren elf, much more tied to Middle-Earth, and his presence in the Fellowship was more symbolic, than of one of the Calaquendi.
.


What I mean is that this was not the fight of the Noldo anymore. After the Forgivance of the Valar they were bound to go back to Aman little by little. However, the Moriquendi were supposed to stay if they wished (maybe this is wrong though) and I think Tolkien pretended to say that the stories we heard about Elves now (the same as Hobbits, ents, trolls...) are of those who rmained here hidden and forgotten.
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:39 pm

Besides, as someone pointed out, the wood elves were represented by Legolas, why were the High Elves (Elronds lot) not represented ?


how many of the high elves were even left in middle earth? i wouldn't imagine to many (although i could be wrong). you mentioned Lord Elrond, Celeborn, Cirden, and Galadriel. were there many others, still?

also, i thought high elves were those that had been been in valinor, or atleast ones that had lived durring the first age. as such, would elrond qualify?
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Postby Lord Reefer » Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:53 pm

Yes, Elrond is definately that old. I think he was a herald or something to one of the old Elven Lords. I forget the full story.
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:14 pm

elrond was born at the very end of the first age. his father, earendil, was the one who brought about an end to the first age, by pleading with the valar. after the great and final battle that ensued, earendil took a silmaril, which, along with earendil and his ship, was set in the sky, as a beacon of hope. it is from this star that galadrial gathered the light for the phail she gave frodo.

anyways, the fall of morgoth marked the end of the first age. elrond was but a child when morgoth fell. same with elros, who was elrond's brother. elros made the same choice arwen made, in the lord of the rings, and chose a mortal life. this gave way to the race of numenerians, of which aragorn, in the lord of the rings, is decended from. the numenorians are a people who didn't even exist in the first age, and it is the numenorians who pretty much served as the focal point for the second age.

so, while elrond may have been born in the first age, i wouldn't say he necessarily lived in the first age. he never knew any of the woes of the first age, really.

galardrial, in contrast, is really old. she was there at the defining moment of the first age - when morgoth stole the silmarils from sauron. same goes for glorifendal, who was there during the fall of gondolon, a city established by ones of the sons of feanor, the forger of the silmarils. i don't know a lot about celeborn - he may be old, he may not be. i think his crowning achievement in life is marrying galadrial, actually, heh. cirdain seems to have led a pretty undignified life, as well, but i believe he's atleast mentioned in the silmarilion whereas celeborn isn't.
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Postby Lord Reefer » Fri Jan 30, 2004 9:20 pm

Yeah quite true. I've just dug the book out, I forgot all this. :)

BTW Celeborn of Doriath is mentioned in Silmarillion. Himself and Galadriel were the parents of Elrond's wife Celebrian which I'd forgotten as well. (so Galadriel is Elronds mother in law and Celeborn his father in law)

I should have remebered this from the connection between Arwen and Galadriel in the LOTR (Grandmother)
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Postby TerraFrost » Fri Jan 30, 2004 10:50 pm

i didn't know that! thanks for the info! :)
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Sun Feb 01, 2004 12:21 am

Gondolin was the city of Turgon, second son of Fingolfin, and High King of the Noldor after Fingolfin and Fingon and before Gil-Galad (and much before Tar-Herunole hehe)

Celeborn of Doriath is indeed one of the greatest Sindar and met Galdriel in the times where the sons of Finarfin alone among the Noldor where allowed to enter Doriath and there she dwelled for long because of her love to Celeborn, and in that way Melian and Thingol learnt that the Noldor were exiles and not sent by the Valar

Elrond was the herald of Gil-Galad, and like GIl Galad but while Gil Galad is 4th generation, Earendil was 5th and Elrond 6th But the thre of them, even if born during the first Age or at its end, are considered Noldor and Eldar as well, for the gift of having seen the light was something hereditary. I t kind of changed your ADN, like the Numenoreans who were Edain whol faought with the Valar and lived near Aman. That's the reason why not only the direct descendants of Elros, but all the Numenoreans have unusually long lives (although the Kings, descendants of Elros had longer than the rest)

Cirdan "the shipwhright" was nor a lower elf. He was not only the best shipbuilder in the Middle Earth, but he was also the lord of the falas and fought during the first age, and then lord of the Grey Heavens. Although most of the times his love to the sea made of him a logistics and retaguard man, like when assisting Turgon of Gondolin in the Sirion. Nis true might can be deducted for the fact that he was indeed one of the ones who received one of the three Rings of the Elves! (Narya in particular, which he give to gandalf later)
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Postby TerraFrost » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:29 am

so was elrond the lord of the noldor at the time of the lord of the rings, then? i don't recall that fact being made a big deal out of in the lord of the rings, but i guess that may just be because the noldor's importance, as a whole, as going down.

also, don't forget finwe, as one of the lords of the noldor. :)
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Sun Feb 01, 2004 12:17 pm

That's a good question. My opinion is that both because of the declining numbers of the Noldor in the Middle Earth, and because their effective fusion with the Sindar, the title was not used anymore. If the title was to be claimed, probably it could have fallen to Elrond.
If there was no descendant of Gil-Galad, this would be supported in the ordinary lines of succesion that we know, in the Kingship falling always in men and in the fact that it was held in the House of Fingolfin.
However, it's my intuition that it would actually have fallen in Galadriel. And I support this intutition in three reasons:The Noldor did not follow an ordinary line of succesion: it is never explained why from Fingon goes to Turgon his brother, and from Turgon to Gil-Galad, his nephew. But it actually made a lot of sense, if you think about the power and the leadership over the Noldor that the young Gil-Galad and Turgon could have had at the moment. Given that the elves live forever, a strict line from father to son doesn't make too much sense. And then between a Gil-Galad son of Fingon, and leader with Cirdan of the Elves in the Havens, and an Earendil whose father was human (even if it was Tuor) makes again sense the choice of Gil-Galad.
The second reason is that although the Kingship never felt in a woman, that could be only because there was never an ocassion. All children of Finwe were sons, and all sons of Feanor, and the two eldest of Fingolfin were male. But in the Silmarillion, Glaladriel expressses from the beginning her intention to have a Kingdom of her own, will that is fullfilled in Lothlorien. That makes me think that it was not unthinkable for Tolkien to have a Queen (the real live monarch of JRRT was the Queen of England as well)
The third reason is that if we accept the earlier two, Galadriel, 3rd generation, and one of the wisest and most beutiful creatures of the whole Arda, that had lived in Aman and survived the Helcaraxe an all the battles of the first age, and whose Elvish blood was stronger and his loyalty to the Noldor as well, would have made a much more suitable sovereign than Elrond, 6th generation, and around third human, third Sinda and third Noldo (Galadriel's Mother and her husband were from the Sindar as well though).

But if you look at both candidates, they were both so interlinked with the Sindar, that only Kingship on the whole Eldar of Middle-Earth made sense, and not only on the Noldor

About Finwe, he can be included because he was King before going to Arda in the begining of the times. Because we were only talking about the Kings of the Noldor in Middle-Earth. In that sense you could also add Feanor who was briefly King until slain (maybe lasted only one battle as King) But not Maedhros for he never accepted the Kingship but gave it to Fingolfin.

If you want to count the other Lords of the Noldor, you have to add Ingwe, High King of all Elves (a Vanya), Finwe as King in Amman, Fingolfin as King of the Noldo of Tirion (most of the Noldor, only except Finwe, Feanor and his sons) and Finarfin, King of the Noldor that remained in Valinor.
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Postby Lord Reefer » Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:04 pm

Well I've certainly learnt a lot this week.
Just changing the subject slightly, in the Hobbit they are captured, and later fight along side, the Elven king from Mirkwood. In the Hobbit he is never named. Is he ever named anywhere else ? Do we know who he is ? And is he any relation to Legolas ?
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Postby TerraFrost » Sun Feb 01, 2004 8:58 pm

that was a really informative post, Tar-Herunole! :)

and that's a good question, Lord Reefer...

finally, this is a very useful post, TerraFrost, hehe :)
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:49 am

First I would like to make a note. Yesterday I read again the first pages of the “About the Rings of Power and the Third Age, and it refers to Gil-Galad as King of all Eldar, not only Noldor. That might change slightly my considerations above, but I think most still holds. Also, the mother of Galadriel was not Sindar, but Teleri of Alqualonde (THe Teleri had three branches, 1) The teleri of Aman (Alqualonde mainly) 2)the Sindar of Thingol 3) The Nandor who were the teleri who did not join Thingol neither travel to Aman)
The Nandor amomg which there were the Green Elves of Ossiriand, were ancestors of0or maybe were themselves) The Elves of Mirkwood, and of Legolas (who was part of that kingdom) and as well ancestors to most of the elves of Lothlorien (but not of its ruling class). Mirkwood was the new name given to the green forest after the darkening caused by the nearby DolGuldur in the 2nd Age.

Hope this helps.

BTW, Terra comments, when not informative themselves are at least highly encouraging. Not only let you know someone is reading what you write, but also make you feel proud of yourself ;)
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Postby Tar-Herunole » Mon Feb 02, 2004 11:54 am

Oh, forgot, and in the Fourth age, Galadriel and Celeborn moved to Mirkwood renaming it again greenwood!
About Legolas, if I am not wrong is clearly stated in the first introcduction to the council in Rivendel taht he comes from Mirkwood, and in TRTK, he offers Aragorn to bring elves from Mirkwood to reconstruct the living part of the city (gardens, trees..) while Gimly offers help of the Dwarves for the stonemasonry. Both fulfilled their promises and Gimly had later his own Kingdom in the mountains between Gondor and Rohan (just before departing with legolas for Aman, only Dwarf that did)
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