relative godhood of the valar, and so on

One ring to rule them all, one ring to find them. One forum to bring it all and in the darkness bind them.

Moderators: Rao, Tar-Herunole

relative godhood of the valar, and so on

Postby TerraFrost » Sun Nov 02, 2003 6:43 am

i read something kinda interesting on usenet about LotR..

Code: Select all
> The wondrous light of nuclear energy is able to transform the nature of
> those who live near it.  In fact, it's so wonderful that even its
> presence, without any visible light, has this effect.  See Sellafield,
> Chernobyl, Basra. {snip}
> The Calaquendi were mutated freaks who owed their nature to two giant
> nuclear power plants built by the Valar (the nuclear powers).  Melkor
> stole the plutonium rods in order to set up his own energy industry
> (centred on Thangorodrim), and the techies left Valinor to apprehend
> him.  Melkor used the byproducts of his industry to create his own army
> of mutants, and in one battle (the Dagor Bragollach) sent a torrent of
> nuclear waste to devastate the green fields of the Elves.  The ruin of
> the giant nuclear plant destroyed the lands of Beleriand, so that they
> sank beneath the waves.  The Valar tried to dispose of the waste
> products in a variety of ways: by sinking it in the sea, by burying it
> underground, and by sending it into space.


i think this would be a really neat explanation for orcs, but... then it begs the question, why would those who had been exposed to the valar not be mutated into what orcs had been mutated into?

also, something else that was suggested in a follow up post is that while elves are mutated, humans die. this is why the valar didn't want man to come to valinor. of course, the fact that tuor did sorta causes a problem.

so, it's a sorta neat idea, but not without it's problems. but, it sorta does make one think... what if, one day, man advanced enough to achieve the same power that the valar had? then, what if one day, the valar had surpassed the power of the valar, through technology, and achieved the same power as eru? what if just happened to be that eru wasn't *really* a god, but he just seemed as one to man? this sounds kinda like those bizzare and often dismissed theories that suggest that man (in the real world) was created by some alien, and not a god, or something, heh.
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Rao » Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:00 pm

I liked that alot, it was amusing. Terra, im sure you realize that Tolkien created Middle earth right off the bible. Eru=god
Valar=apostles Children of Illuvatar=Children of God(us) Melkor=Satan Sauron=Jackass who wants to be Satan #2

Get it. got it. My intrepretation of it.
Tell the Spartans, Stranger passing by,
That here, Obedient to their laws, We lie,
User avatar
Rao
Elite Guard
 
Posts: 1532
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:26 pm
Location: The Boondocks

Postby TerraFrost » Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:14 am

that sounds like quite a reasonable interpretation :)

i'm not uber well versed in bible lore, but could sauron be judah, or somebody like that?
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Rao » Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:49 am

nah, Judah wasn't that bad. Sauron was just a chump who that he was big shit, i guess you can say that he was Loki, or Hades, tolkien enjoyed branching off into many mythologies. His favorite was Norse, you could also intrepretate it as that also.

OR!! You can not care and just say that Tolkien did what he did becuz in his mind, thats how it really was. Many thought he believed this place really existed. Honestly, i beleive it will or has, but, who knows.
Tell the Spartans, Stranger passing by,
That here, Obedient to their laws, We lie,
User avatar
Rao
Elite Guard
 
Posts: 1532
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:26 pm
Location: The Boondocks

Postby TerraFrost » Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:06 am

arda would definitly be a much cooler history to believe in, imho, than the bible, heh :)

although it's easy to say that when you know nothing about the bible and a fair amount about the history of arda, heh :)

atleast with the gods of arda, holy wars would sorta seem to be impossible :)
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Rao » Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:13 pm

Well, actually, the war with Melkor was a holy war. Technically, seeing as he is a god. Also, with Numenor tryiing to attack Valinor. Why? Becuz they beleived that Melkor was the god of all, and him being held captive, therefore, i guess that would bwe a holy war.
Tell the Spartans, Stranger passing by,
That here, Obedient to their laws, We lie,
User avatar
Rao
Elite Guard
 
Posts: 1532
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:26 pm
Location: The Boondocks

Postby Evlfrost » Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:30 pm

Well I think numenor attacking valinor was more because they wanted to be immortal and thought that living in valinor made you so.
Evljsh: You're young and thus illegal!
xXOkashiiSuruXx: -falls over-

Image
User avatar
Evlfrost
Frost Druid
Frost Druid
 
Posts: 6692
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:41 pm
Location: Suburbia

Postby Rao » Fri Dec 12, 2003 8:40 pm

ok, wouldnt that be kind of a holy war? Immortality? Belief in a different god? Taking over Holy land? Seems to take the basis of a crusade.
Tell the Spartans, Stranger passing by,
That here, Obedient to their laws, We lie,
User avatar
Rao
Elite Guard
 
Posts: 1532
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 10:26 pm
Location: The Boondocks

Postby Evlfrost » Fri Dec 12, 2003 9:29 pm

I guess you could look at it that way.
Evljsh: You're young and thus illegal!
xXOkashiiSuruXx: -falls over-

Image
User avatar
Evlfrost
Frost Druid
Frost Druid
 
Posts: 6692
Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2002 2:41 pm
Location: Suburbia

Postby Tar-Herunole » Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:53 pm

Tolkien himself loved myths and hated alegories and direct paralelisms. What that means is thatyou have to get the idea, that you can learn from the suffering, the greatness, and the weakness of the Noldor and other Children of Iluvatar, you can explain why some things are good and some things are bad, and also explain things that cannot be easily explained by plain logic. But you should not think that Sauron is Hitler, and the hobbit is the plain English Soldier of WWI or WWII... but still you can learn what happens when you let an enemy (like the Germany of between wars) bully your minor allies (Poland, Czech) and you are not enough brave and generous to reach and agreement with your potential allies and face the horror of war on due time...
High King of the Noldor in Middle-Earth
Honorary Knight of the Pointy Shiney
"... All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die"
User avatar
Tar-Herunole
Elite Guard
 
Posts: 1471
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:01 am

Postby Tar-Herunole » Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:54 pm

Well, said that, Tolkien was not only Christian but also Catholic, in a time when that meant something (it's not the same be anglican when everyone is and nobody cares, that being Catholic in a land where Catholics are traditionally thought of as semi-traitors) What I mean is that he was a sincere believer. He even converted CS lewis from Agnosticism to fervourous faith. In that sense, his myth, Middle-Earth, reflect not only the values of the old English heroes, and the decadence of the Empire, but also the Christian religion.
High King of the Noldor in Middle-Earth
Honorary Knight of the Pointy Shiney
"... All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die"
User avatar
Tar-Herunole
Elite Guard
 
Posts: 1471
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:01 am

Postby Tar-Herunole » Wed Jan 14, 2004 6:00 pm

Eru was then indeed God, but the Valar, more than apostles were Angels. They pre-existed in Heaven creation itself. And Melkor, obviously is Satanas/Beelzebub/Lucifer... the fallen Angel that revealed against God, because wanted to be God himself, and who was defeated but the army of loyal angels commanded by the Archangel Saint Michael (Tulkas?) and was thrown to Hell with al his followers. And is Satanas who in the form of a snake went to the Garden of Eden (the original design for Middle Earth? Aman?) and told human to eat from the forbidden fruit, bringing with that evil to the world of man.
High King of the Noldor in Middle-Earth
Honorary Knight of the Pointy Shiney
"... All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die"
User avatar
Tar-Herunole
Elite Guard
 
Posts: 1471
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:01 am

Postby TerraFrost » Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:18 am

one thing i think that makes tolkien's works bad allegories is the fact that no one gives a second thought about killing the minions of the dark lord (be that dark lord melkor or sauron) even though killing isn't so easy in real life conflicts. in real life conflicts, not everyone is a combatant, and not everyone who is on the wrong side of a conflict deserves death.

also, it might be better to edit / add the information in your first post than make a new post 1 minute after your last one :)
TerraFrost
Legendary Guard
 
Posts: 12357
Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 6:37 am

Postby Tar-Herunole » Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Sorry terra frost, but my connection was not working properly and I was loosing what was written, so i thought it was safer to write in different posts.. but you are right it could be better editing
High King of the Noldor in Middle-Earth
Honorary Knight of the Pointy Shiney
"... All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die"
User avatar
Tar-Herunole
Elite Guard
 
Posts: 1471
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 1:01 am


Return to The Tolkien League

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest